Oh Jesus, here we go with the confusion.

I'm leary of mentioning the name of this maudio rep as try to not drop names in confusing and poor reviews on a public forum like this. Email me and I will give you the name (joed@joedoriamusic.com).
This person obviously went outta his way to send me what seems to be truthful info on the state of the delta drivers - and I admire him for his candid reply.
The seconed letter from him reads in a very different and corporate tone however.

Personally, in winXP tests (vegas), I am seeing a much higher noise floor when working in Vegas...so this letter I received seems to backup my feeling that 24-bit isn't really 24-bit in vegas and XP with the deltas.

I also have decided to stay with Win98se until I move an RME card based on the fact that I cannot (in five systems) stop the audio drifting that occurs in XP with Vegas. This DOES NOT occur at all in win98se.

audio drifting (about 3-4 minutes into a 16-trk 24-bit/44.1 session): Is it the delta drivers in XP Is it Vegas with XP? Both? Who knows...??
We custonmers are left in the dark.

Here is a quote from the letter:

<<snip>>

The issue with 24 bit recording in Windows 2000 and XP with WDM is a bit a
> tedious issue. As it may be obvious to believe it is the fault of the
> driver that does not allow proper operation in recording, it is in fact not
> the our fault, but in exact fact it is the fault of the OS, Microsoft made
> the mistake with Windows XP and not allowing 24 bit recording with MME!!!!
>
> As far as Windows 2000 and WDM, it is not the fault of the driver, but in
> deed the fault of the applications that can not communicate properly with
> the WDM architecture of the operating system, so applications like Sound
> Forge, Vegas, Samplitude, Cool Edit Pro and Wavelab 3.0 suffer from this
> since these applications do not actively communicate properly with WDM
> support. This is not the fault of our driver. This is a combination of the
> OS and the Application.
>
> In order to keep us on a good plain with working with all these
> applications, we may attempt to accommodate these imperfections into our
> driver, thus doing them a favor but this is entirely up to us while we all
> wait to see what Microsoft does with 24bit and WDM support.
>
> Please be patient as far as new driver releases go, we are the fastest
> growing most dominant audio card company in the MI market, we have nine
> cards that are supported under one unified driver when we have a new driver
> release it affects all the cards. We have a new driver in the works, but it
> is not ready for release yet as I am not at liberty to say what we are doing
> with it

<<snip>>


I am waiting for a confirmation on my last reply regarding these issues. I will follow up with that once confirmed.
It was stated that Maudio is working with SF on this issue. I would like confirmation of this as well.

What do you mean by drift?
I am using an Acer p3 450 256 ram with a 1010 and xp.
At a recent audio recording session with 3 tracks, 24 bit-48k, using Vegas 3.0 the
audio tracks moved in timing. Enough moving horizontally on
the screen to notice an audible delay after around four minutes.
After a second recording of around 20 minutes the tracks
had major shifts toward the end. I have yet to figure out
whether the tracks are just shifted or one or all are shortened
and lenghtened in timing. Is this what you mean by drifting?

I see three working systems, the 1010 drivers, xp and vegas.
Which of the three is causing problems? Earlier postings in
this group stated the configuration of xp caused sync problems.

jpresley

When i say drifting, it means just that recorded tracks are falling out of sync whenever I use W2k or XP (my drift start to occur after 3-4 minutes of 16 tracks (at one time) 24-bit (supposedly - but it's NOT 24-bit, but that's another issue) 44.1 kHz sessions.
I bet you're experiencing the same.

Win98se, same EXACT setup/session/scenario - all 16 24-bit/44.1 tracks record in sync all the way.
Go Win98se with the deltas, delta driver 4.1.22.27 - you'll get the performance and audio quality it takes to GET TO WORK.

Is it the delta drivers? Or vegas? causing these problems in w2k/xp?
We don't know yet - but seeing as though Vegas uses MME drivers and 24-bit isn't working with the delta line in w2k OR xp...the choice should be simple - go win98se if you actually WORK with your DAW.

Or get Sonar with the delta wdm .26 driver.

SF: I'm still waiting for an email. I would love to hear facts of you and Maudio working together to fix (circumvent) the MME issues in w2k/XP (24-bit not working: 24-bit is NOT 24-bit with vegas/delta/w2k or xp).

RME (mme drivers) have successfully designed drivers that WORK - all functionality is present. Why can't Maudio MME's follow this concept? Or...is Vegas also to blame?
We need to know - but more importantly - we need a fix ASAP!!!

I'm also hounding Maudio on this.

JoeD

Sorry, but he is wrong about XP (and Vegas/ACID under Win2000.) We are the ONLY apps that correctly support WaveFormatExtensible for 24 bit i/o using Wave MME emulation.

Guess I will have to get MIDIMan to straight this out....sigh...


Peter

I don't know Peter, maybe it is true (and it COULD be driver related only??).
I see a higher noise floor when using XP / delta 1010 .26 driver in comparison tests against the same app/setup in Win98se. This is a sign that 24-bit in XP is not 24-bit (I don't have the tools here to test in depth).

This is why I won't/can't change to WinXP yet.

They also left a voicemail saing that these issues are related to both MS (os) and the Vegas application.

So here we go with the confusion again.

All in all, I just want (and NEED) 24-bit to be 24-bit in WinXP, but I also need a fix for the sync issues I ONLY get in Win XP with Vegas.

Please check on the sync issues as well, many are reporting the same (and I suspect those that havn't aren't pushing their sessions liek this to even know (16 tracks of 24-bit/44.1 audio at one time).
It is DEFINITELY getting of sync about 3 minute into the session.

Win98se: works great, can't repro this once.

JoeD

Joe,
I recently recorded a live performance: 8 tracks @ 24/96 using WIN2K, Vegas 3, and a Delta 1010. The show ran 50 minutes. There was NO sync problems at all. 50 minutes into the recording, there was NO phasing at all. Everything synced rock solid.

Can't verify that my 24/96 tracks were ACTUALLY 24/96, though.

jp

I'm getting the same problem with my setup.

win2k, delta1010 and vegas 3

Are there any settings that I can check or change to try and improve this?

jmpatrick...what type of setup are you running: cpu,mobo,harddrives,ram,etc...thanks.

"Personally, in winXP tests (vegas), I am seeing a much higher noise floor when working in Vegas...so this letter I received seems to backup my feeling that 24-bit isn't really 24-bit in vegas and XP with the deltas."

What a bunch of [deleted by sonicepm]. You can hear the noise floor, between 16 bit vs. 24 bit? Yeah right!, 16 bit only has a 96 dB signal to noise ratio, where 24 bit has 144 dB. If you can hear noise at -96dB, you must have super sonic ears, and be working in the most perfect sound quality environment. Besides that, the noise floor is usually determined by the A/D converters and power supply driving the audio system, which would be the same if you're recording in either 16 bit or 24 bit on the same sound card. The noise that is improved is "quantization noise" in a 16bit vs. 24bit recording. I am willing to bet everything I own, that if I made 2 recordings, 1 at 16bit, vs. 1 at 24bit, that you could not tell the difference with the noise floor.

[rest of post deleted by sonicepm]

What a bunch of?
You're venting on issues that aren't there Rednridinhood.

Yes, we all know of the sonic probability of 'HEARING" noise floor. Maybe I didn't clarify this cleary enough for you - as this deals with noise in a driver to driver comparison (deltas).
First - do you own the deltas? You're not going to know what I'm talking about unless you do. Do you own these?

The driver comparisons between the 4.1.22.27 (win98se) vs. the WDM .26:
In each test, one can see and hear added noise (best words we can use to describe) in the WDM .26 (same project settings - 24/44.1) in comparison to the .27s (same project scenario). The many replies I've received on "audio quality comaprisons" between the two explain that the newer (WDM) Drivers used "filtering" (in hopes to minimize the pop/clicking issue?..not confirmed. No reply from Maudio on this).
The filtering introduced sub-par audio quality with later driver versions.

The 4.1.22.27s are far superior in audio quality (don't just ask me either btw).

This is what I'm talking about genius. Don't understand?
Go to Prorec or any other audio msg board and look at posts dealing with poor sound quality with delta driver (.25, .26), distorted audio with newer driver versions.

If you took the time to even test these drivers out yourself you would understand what I'm saying about the driver comaprisons and problems - although I doubt you even own the deltas, in which case - you have NO bearing in this post at all.
But if you DID do these tests and came to the summation that there is NO difference...then may I say I wouldn't want you near 1000 ft. of my studio with ears like that.

My posts in this thread deal with audio quality (driver to driver), full functionality, and sync issues. Not whether I hear "noise floor".
What's next?...pink elephants?
Nice try.

JoeD

To those thinking of dumping the deltas due to all the issues we've faced so far:

if you do - move to RME. Flat out the best W2k/XP driver support out there (the best driver support is VERY important in choosing an audio card. Even with the best specs, without it - and you're screwed).

if you stay - all I can say is that you will likely be seeing an improved driver update addressing a lot of the issues mentioned here (I can't say more than that - sorry). The "final release" may not be final.
So you may want to hang tight a little bit more before giving up and jumping ship.

JoeD

SHTUNOT,
Sorry for the delay.

My asetup:

Abit VP6
Dual P3 1 gig CPU's
768 megs of PC133 RAM
RAID 0 w/ 2 30 gig WD ATA100 H.D.'s
Win 2K
Delta 1010

Latest Delta drivers, Latest WIN 2K S.P.

No burps, no hiccups, no static, no sync problems, no latency problems...no B.S.

jp

Nice rant yourself there ace. You know dang well what I said, quit going off like some web superman and listen. Bag the piss contest and do this first:

Do me a favor, install the 4.1.22.27 on win98se - USE IT.
Set up an 8-16 track session (24/44.1). Record enable all tracks and view the meters (set at -90 or higher). Note all you can (audio, noise pre and post recording, panel settings).

Then install any of the Delta WDM drivers w2k/XP - do the exact same setup as above. Look at the meters pre and post record - you'll see a noticably higher noise floor, possible effects of filtering in audio quality, panel settings not being saved correctly, and sync for multiple deltas may seem bugged - drifting occurs.

But the real obvious test to me is simply A/Bing each scenario - the 4.1.22.27 delivers better (clearer to me) audio quality, better sync, proper panel settings than any of the latest release WDMs.

Try the above before going off on me redinpudding. Then use the ignore button with me if you feel the need. That might be our best bet.

JoeD

Hey rednroll...
Was that rant for me? No? Didn't think so.

jp

<<"I'ld definitely run out and buy one of those RME cards now that you've endorsed them">>

Uh yeah...RME is the worst, just keep telling yourself that - you winner.
You should get a gadget labs board - they're probably better huh.
Your sarcasm describes your intelligence?

JoeD

No 24-bit as of yet either (W2K). Read the info on the w2k 24-bit issues with Vegas and the Delta. This will hopefully be addressed soon.

Some questions:

What version of vegas are you using (VA2 or VV3a)?

How many tracks are you recording at one time? Track by track?...or 8 or more at once?
24-bit/44.1?

btw: No this isn't related to redinhead posts, it has to do with something else.

JoeD

VV3, 8 tracks...24/96.

Just a slight request, but can JoeD and Rednroll please stick to the hardware & software topics and avoid mentioning each other? Thank you.

Yes. I will stick to the topic.

Do you have the delta line as well?

If so, tell me if you (and others of course) are seeing drifting occur into a multitrack session (8 or more tracks at 24/44.1 or 96) in vegas audio 2.0h

then the same session in VV3a.

Testing drifting that CONSISTENTLY REPROS occuring in VA2.0h (vs. VV3a).

JoeD