Curious as to why you reject MySQL. Our company uses MySQL for our enterprise application. It handles 58,000 transactions per second from thousands of simultaneous users around the globe. We've got several 100GB+ tables that it handles effortlessly. It's binary data types can store a variety of media right in the DB, though personally i prefer to store media separately and make pointer fields.

Compared to MySQL we consider PostGreSQL to be a mere toy, not even worthy of experimentation.

I disagree with your statement about PostgreSQL . But I agree, store the media outside the DB and use file pointers. BTW, MySQL is not free if you use it commercially. There are also others out there, just using them as an example.
there is more to this than transaction speed. PG has built in object oriented data type support for one. Inheritance... the list goes on. Not talking about a real time commerce system either.
If SQL Server or Oracle weren't so overpriced, I'd stick with them.
If all I was talking about was fast list processing, I 'might' consider MySQL.
Does MySQL support stored Procs? Real time error management? Fall over protection?

Any way, not wanting to get in a my DB is better then your DB debate. Looking for useful input on this.

To what destination?

1: A generally free or inexpensive add-on that is contributed to the Sony community - or to the Sony developers as a starting point to improve the present management tool...
2: A proprietary tool that is offered as a commercial venture to Sony users...

It does not make any difference to me which it is, I don't have time to help you much in either case...

It might make a difference to those who will consider it... of course, they could email you directly, but I'm a little skeptical of anyone looking for help who won't post his real name... that might very well be a personal flaw, but others might feel the same way.

You've been around here a few years now, my one recommendation is:
Make sure you get the input from those who have spoken of such a tool before and take them seriously ... please don't try to make everything fit your workflow, using the free expertise and assistance you get here, and expect everyone to adjust to your style or techniques for editing and tracking changes and alterations.

Good luck with the effort ...
In either case above, I would like updates and feedback from time to time on the progress of such a tool...

Until that time... Earl J.

"Does MySQL support stored Procs? Real time error management? Fall over protection?"

Yes. Yes. Yes.

As far as I know the full blown SQL Server is free for upto five simultaneous users which is the reason Media Manager uses it. I see no reason to re-invent the wheel, it just needs someone or a group to pickup development of what we already have.

Bob.

For the record, I'm using my real name. Earl, I feel the same way.

Bob, Vegas is using SQL Server express, not the same as the server oriented SQL Server. I think it's 10 connections, similar to Oracle express. Besides, there would be no direct access to the database, just the engine managing things between the users and the servers.

Chien, cool. Last time I looked at MySQL, they were debating adding subqueries. I never looked back after that.

But the questions isn't really about which database, more interested in what SCS software users would want.

The current system is not condusive to collaborative feature film making. Yet we have at our disposal some really stand alone tools.

So the question being...what sort of tools we all like to have for managing workflow between many users for a feature length movie?
We could start be looking at what is out there (AVID for one) or Generations from Eyeon and go from there.

For many in the industry, Vegas is viewed as an island and that is not a good thing.

A few NABs ago when I had the pleasure of meeting Glenn Chan, there was a demo of a tool based on Sony Apps or something, that never went anywhere.

And as far as I'm concerned, it should be free or low cost to registered SCS users. Not necessarily open source.

So, input not just from tekkies, but from producers, editors, directors, artists, audio editors, etc...

If SCS doesn't want to help, then lets help each other.





Joe C.

Looking at what Avid does is probably a very good idea. I think Grass Valley also has some media management products.

There was a thread here recently asking for a recommended tool. The poster had a list of needs.

I think that a good goal would be to have a very generalized database that could work across a network, allow multiple users, and be extensible.

My employers are working on a feature length documentary within my earshot. I've lit most of the interviews in it. One of the interviewees is a well known venture capitalist who had a hand in building up some very big companies in the 70's and 80's and he tends to stress that you need to have a big market for your product.

So, what market would be bigger than the pool of Vegas users? Obviously FCP users. But bigger than that? FCP and Vegas users. And Avid users. And PPro users...

I think that what you need to start with is a core product that can track assets and can be expanded to do specific things for the various NLE platforms.

So, what would be useful as extensions to the core database?

--Tracking what clips are used in project files, and what sections of the media are actually used on the timeline
--tracking relationships between project files (Like, these 20 veg files are part of the same project)
--Tracking rights ownership of clips, estimating costs to use the clip, generating reports of what's used and how much of it
--Set up tape backup jobs based on the contents of a project file (There used to be a backup program called Mezzo that did this for Media100 projects)
--Set up "Watch" folders for the program to catalog.

etc, etc.

You could start this off as a project for Vegas but I think you really need to have an eye on the wider market. It probably needs to have a very basic and fundamental function that is compelling to everyone. And this core application should be kind of cheap, in the $50.00 range to get it out into lots of hands but set the expectation that it isn't free.

Rob Mack

Thanks for the input Rob. Even though I'm wanting to gear it toward Feature production, I hadn't thought about rights to use different clips.

btw, I just found out NeoHD and 4K have 10bit color support in Vegas 9. I must have missed the announcement.

I remember reading some where there is a free open source production/workflow tool out there to help film students learn the post production process, but I can't remember it's name.

I like Avids' approach using bins that can be project independent.

As far as a database, need to be able to store more than file\path info to be useful, which is why I am looking at PostGreSQL. Very extensible. It's multiplatform, has great developer support, strong corporate backing and built in communications security. Not as fast as MySQL, but doesn't have to be.
I'm open to other suggestions though.

Keep it comin folks.

At this stage I'm not even certain which problem we're trying to solve. I'm assuming asset management from within Vegas?

Biggest problem I can see is whatever solution is attempted it would need to hook fairly deeply into Vegas itself.

For example the backend management system would let me archive assets offline and know where they are. I open a Vegas project and it can't find the asset because it isn't where it was. The backend server interface into Vegas can find out where it is though and should be able to advise the Vegas user "Hey mate, it's on HDD XYZ in the bottom draw"


Bob.

That sounds like a good use for it but I doubt that you'd ever be able to hook into vegas in that way. So look at it from a different vantage point. Suppose you use the backend management system to open the veg file and restore all its assets out from the archive. More like CVS or SVN.

It's pretty easy for a project like this to get too big to complete, but I think what you'd want is a base system with some very open potential and then add-on tools to make it do things for a particular NLE.

Rob

I did write some code ages ago that sort of did this.
I had EDLs and the assets however some of the file names were truncated or moved so loading the EDLs into Vegas was a nightmare when they called up 1,000s of assets (stills). To resolve this as painlessly as possible I simply called the Find API in Windows, had a table of 'most likely' places to start searching etc.
The code wrote a Vegas project as text and Vegas sucked it up just fine.

Your approach sounds very good. Like it a lot. Of course you need a Vegas project reader, that might be quite a task in itself.

Bob.

From my point of view if I compare the current Media Manager with something like RecentFiles:

1. Media Manager is slow. It's ok with tags but terrible with general search.

2. The limit to the number of files displayed is awkward. There should be some way to access more results without having to narrow the search criteria

3. Ideally there should be a way to locate files from the time line in media manager or explorer.

Kit

GV certainly has media management. A full system to ingest video and
even run a tv station. But it ain't free. We use MySQL for our database.

People are right, don't wan't this to get so big it becomes overwhelming.

I'll try to be more practical on this.
Production company is shooting a feature in 1920x1080x24p for theatrical distribution and eventually broadcast , DVD and online (let's say Hulu or something similar).
VFX will be primarily set extension with only a few minutes of green screen scenes. (think along the lines of the HBO series John Adams).
All video will be captured and archived uncompressed, then converted to formats needed for different departments to do their work. DPX or EXR files will be generated for on and off site VFX teams.
Captured Video will be converted to a format that doesn't tax out the hardware, while still maintaining visual quality.
or..
would converting everything to DPX or EXR files be a good idea?

I'm thinking workflow, pipeline...moving assets from one person to another, collecting and managing assets and responsibilities and people for a feature length production.
Video Editing
Audio Editing
Sound Design
VFX,, CG
Folley
ADR
Color correction
Photography (stills)
communication/collaboration tools.
Please add more.....

I like the idea of a server based system to manage all the assets in a Vegas project.

The latest versions of Windows Server (2008 r2) and Windows 7 have extensive file management features built in.

As far as getting deep into Vegas. Not sure that would be necessary. A plug-in that works as an alternative vs a replacement for the current Media Manager.

thanks for the input so far.

BTW, false hope on NEO HD. The salesman who told me that, emailed me later and said Vegas still only renders out in 8bit color space. Drat.

"I'm thinking workflow, pipeline...moving assets from one person to another, collecting and managing assets and responsibilities and people for a feature length production.

If you're sending work out to multiple post houses or departments then I fear you're going to run into a fundamental limitation with Vegas itself with timecode. You can work around this and you could be just fine for a small scale project if everyone understands how you are working and the limitations of your system.

DPX is an industry standard. I'm not certain if Vegas handles it correctly. I've had some very funky outcomes from DPX files that decode perfectly in other aps. Aside from that DPX is a huge amount of data, I doubt a composer would want DPX reference files.
Make certain every reference file has burnt in source reel/file names and timecode as well as your T/L TC. My first 'movie' project the reference video has burnt in TC but no reel numbers and every reel starts at the same TC, brilliant.

One other things of some importance. I assume this will be 23.97 fps and not 24fps. It sounds trivial but that small difference has caused major grief. Make certain everyone coming on board knows and works at wheatever the project frame rate is.

Bob.

Hello Joe, (good name by the way, we named our son Joe (Joseph));
I'm speaking more of the account names of people - I click on the highlighted name in the message and get to the public account page - I look for real name - if it is hidden, a flag goes up.
* * *
I like your effort... now, I understand that even if I did have the time to help, you're looking for expertise way over my head ... (grin) - I've only been involved with video since about 2001 - and Vegas for about 6 or 8 years... so no real film experience to speak of or to draw from for any technical input.
I'm a hobbyist at this point. I do appreciate the notion of moving things around to other people on a project ... very intriguing... good luck with it all.
* * *
It appears your effort has attracted the attention of some of the more experienced and technical members of the forum ... I'm sure you'll get much, if not all, of the help you'll need to design something for the rest of us.
* * *
Not knowing how it presently works, my immediate question is: how does it presently work?
Does each studio have its own proprietary system for packaging something for each division (sound, music, Folley) as you have categorized it ...
OR
does one format suit all the individual divisions to which the film is shipped for alteration and modification?
I don't really expect anyone to answer that question and explain it to me; I ask it to point out that if we know how the successful video production companies accomplish it, then perhaps we could just simulate or replicate what they do in a Vegas environment, no?
We take the successful formats for each division and modify them to work with Vegas... no?
and if the prices for these other formats gets too cost-prohibitive, then perhaps some open-source replacement might work in the costly format's stead.
All that to indicate that it might not require building something from scratch ...
I do believe that is what you are attempting ... the input from others seems to indicate their willingness to copy and replicate the present workflow of these big video production companies.

As I indicated above, I'm new to video, but I believe I've done a good amount of problem-solving over the years... (grin)
* * *
Of course, if I'm way off base - feel free to ignore these comments and move on without me - I've had quite a bit of experience with that sort of interaction as well. . . lol

And yes, I fully understand that you don't need my permission to ignore me... (wink)

Until that time... Earl J.

Bob, 24p since the goal was theatrical release first.
As far as a composer, send SD video after picture lock.
Same for Foley and sound design.
OpenEXR is also a standard for VFX work, but it seems using something like AE or Nuke to handle that, then render out scenes to be placed on the Vegas timeline.
Which brings us back to how to track all this. What would be needed to overcome SCS software current limitations.