Importing vid into BD proj.

MPM wrote on 7/13/2008, 10:05 PM
Importing media into a BD project in DVDA5 seems a bit hit or miss, with mpg2 very possible, & AVC quite possibly broken. Importing either mpg2 or AVC works better on a new project (importing a file judged non-compliant seems to sometimes cause the next files you try not to work either), & you can have different results if you import the video into a video-only project vs a menu based one.

AVC files that worked one time can be refused the next. AVC files created in MeGUI using X264 with the BD profiles didn’t work. Using h264info.exe you might be able to get DVDA5 to accept an AVC file or not - it’s a bit more iffy since h264info.exe is in Alpha, & quite prone to crashing, if it’ll even run on your system & OS. There’s not a lot of tools available to give info on AVC files - the only thing I could find out so far is DVDA5 created AVCs are probably RAW (they have the AVC file extension) & they appear to be level 4. And of course for the moment there are no templates in Vegas, and few anywhere else for that matter.

Mpg2 files for BD projects follow in the footsteps of imported video for SD DVDs... When/if you check out the Custom dialog for the MainConcept encoder, the last tab is for the added data in an mpg file, vs the standard m2v variety most often used for DVD authoring. DVDA has always liked that information present, & BD projects are no exception... Having it present means files will load quickly, without the parsing & writing of index files that has caused so many SD DVD problems, especially when re-opening a more complex project that uses all non-Sony created media.

At the moment the only way I know to add that data to an existing m2v file is to mux it without providing an audio file - I use TMPGEnc’s Mpeg Tools - & it seems to work with BD rez mpg2 video as well. I mentioned that it can make a difference how you import video - importing m2v into a BD, single video project (no menus) can hang DVDA5, so if you don’t want menus, get rid of them after you import the video.

DVDA doesn’t like Transport Streams - if you have problems because of that or many other reasons you can try one of the many utilities to mod or fix your existing mpg2 file. Restream will re-write the headers, which can fool DVDA5 into accepting a 720 mpg2 for instance, that really is at 29.97 fps. How well it works after that is anyone’s guess... if your player handles it, and that’s all you’re worried about, go for it. Similar to hacks in the early days of DVD authoring, you could also try to substitute the original file with legit flags in your BD folders - change them to get DVDA happy, then put it right after DVDA does it’s job.

DVDA5 may have some odd BD media format choices... I say “may” because later stuff I’ve read suggests std. 720 video files aren’t welcome at the BD party now - surprising since earlier info included 29.97, & the now required 59.94 seems a footnote barely mentioned. So it may be that the developers might not have screwed up leaving 720 29.97 out of DVDA5. I’m too cynical as it is, so I won’t bother anyone with possibilities regarding marketing hype - I’m sure you can find that stuff on-line if you’re interested. At any rate, if you want to use the extremely practical 720 format - ideal for distro currently in far more circumstances than 1080 - you still can, & it looks very good too if you’ve got 1080i source.

If you spend the few minutes it takes to set the conversion up properly, the results are well worth it IMHO - better than simply rendering 1080i to 720 p at 59.95 fps in Vegas. Vegas like most every NLE goes a bit soft on this sort of thing; I’m not singling Vegas out for abuse... To do a better job you need DGIndex (optional), AviSynth, & VFAPI to help Vegas out a bit. And here’s the disclaimer: I’m terrible at scripting & that includes using AviSynth - hopefully some of the regular’s who aren’t will chime in with their usual great suggestions.

The first step is to get your 1080i video file opened in AviSynth - there are several direct show based filters you can use, or if your source is mpg2, DGIndex will create an index of the file that can be opened with AviSynth, giving you benefits you won’t have opening mpg2 directly. AviSynth works based on a plain text files with scripting - don’t worry, the stuff I’m including is cut & paste and very rudimentary... For a 1080i mpg2 file, it’ll look like this:

loadplugin("[Full File Path to:]\dgdecode.dll")
mpeg2source(".\your.d2v")
Bob(0.0, 1.0, 720)
BilinearResize(1280,720)

The first line loads the decoder file for DGIndex - you would replace this line if opening up another type of file directly. The second line refers to the DGIndex file you created - again this would be left off if you opened another type of file, skipping DGIndex. The third line does the majority of the work, converting 59.94 fields per second to fps, then shifting the frames to align them vertically. The fourth line shrinks your frame width to 720 spec. Loads of info and links to additional filters etc. is available along with AviSynth itself at avisynth.org.

If you use Prem/Pro or many other editors, you can open your text file, with the extension .avs, directly in place of an avi file. To work in Vegas you need to use VFAPI - you load the avs file in VFAPI, hit the convert button, and out pops a fake or pseudo avi video file that Vegas will be more than happy to work with. Put this fake avi right on the time line - for all practical purposes it’s a legitimate 720p video at 59.94 fps - and when you’re done editing, render using the MainConcept encoder. Setting up the encoder isn’t bad, regardless missing templates... on the last tab, regardless whether you include that data or not, you need to have Program Stream selected rather than Transport stream or DVDA will insist it’s bad. You can base any custom settings on what’s there for existing templates otherwise. As long as the file is not rendered to m2t (transport stream) you’re probably all right, but just to be sure render a 30 second or so clip & try it out in DVDA5. Using AviSynth to convert fields to frames, plus the bob & resize actually is a bit faster than doing it solo in Vegas.

I used Bilinear Resize because it was a little faster than other types, & with my samples, looked a little better than alternatives I tried. Someone better at AviSynth might come up with better choices. Don’t be afraid to try other filters as needed - a neat thing about using avs scripts & VFAPI is you can almost dynamically change your source video in Vegas, without losing your editing! With your project saved & closed, ALL you have to do is change or create another AviSynth script, with another VFAPI avi file, and name that VFAPI file the same as the original on your timeline. The same sort of procedures also work on 1080 that you want to stay 1080, but while this is very efficient for opening D1 &/or SD DVD mpg2 (especially in older versions of Vegas), if you have a 5.1 project all those audio tracks can kill smooth preview (even with mpg2 on the timeline they can kill preview).

Hope this might help
Have fun with some new possibilities.

Comments

alk3997 wrote on 7/15/2008, 11:03 AM
With all of the reports of problems with DVD-A 5.0 and importing mpeg2 files, do we know if Sony Creative is aware of these? I think I counted three threads (in addition to this one) which list problems with importing files. I'd hate to think that while we're talking, Sony is unaware they have any problems.

I guess we can't ask for our money back on DVD-A 5.0! :-) I've gone back to using other software for Blu-Ray until these problems are resolved.

Andy
Wolfgang S. wrote on 7/15/2008, 12:41 PM
Well, there are some issues, especially on the AVC-side. You cannot modify the Sony AVC encoder to full-HD, the footage will be encoded.
But as long as you stay with the exitsting Blu Ray templates 1440x1080 in the Sony AVC encoder, the footage is not recompressed. Further improvements will be available with Vegas 8c, as the documentation of the DVDA5 states.

Sony does not support m2t files for Blu Ray - the footage has to be converted using the Blu Ray templates. But the Blu Ray templates of the mpeg2 mainconcept encoder generates footage that must not be recompressed at all.

So, you have to know how to prepare the footage. And if you know that, it is possible to work with the DVDA5 - even if further improvements will take place for sure in the future.

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MPM wrote on 7/15/2008, 3:17 PM
“With all of the reports of problems with DVD-A 5.0 and importing mpeg2 files, do we know if Sony Creative is aware of these?”

I’d assume yes, Andy, because it’s their job to know. Put another way, *any* company that doesn’t have a simple feedback form like ATI’s CCC crew, IMHO either doesn’t care or wants to discourage direct feedback. And IMHO, posting prob reports in the forums puts them where the company can easily see them, if they want to look. I don’t know that any user should, or should be expected to do more than that. It’s like when tech from any company helps you out... writing back a Thank You makes you feel better, but it’s also one more email someone has to go through, & if they’re strapped for time, you’re wasting their resources. If 5,000 users wrote in or filled out support forms that have to be answered, that’s what, worth a coder that could be working full-time on improvements & fixes? There’s also the possibility that with Sony controlling BD the way it is, SCS may not have much say in everything - much of what I feel is missing may be intentional as Sony takes an active role in whittling down the number of format variations from the dozens of possibilities in use today.

“I've gone back to using other software for Blu-Ray until these problems are resolved.”

Hey, all things being equal you go with the company you like... All things not being equal, you go with what works. That’s one aspect of professionalism (whether you’re a pro or not). “Get ‘er done”...

“You cannot modify the Sony AVC encoder to full-HD...”

What’s frustrating to me at the moment is DVDA5 seems to look for some small trigger(s) in the AVC file rather than any sort of compatibility when it accepts or denies AVC files. If it accepted qualified files that’d be cool - if it accepted qualified files from Vegas that’d be cool. The lack of good info on what DVDA5 looks for is terrible. The number of options for Vegas’ AVC encoder also has to improve. Check out x264, where it’s clear you stand a chance of making a much better encode because you can tailor it to your video. Right now it’s hard with a seal on BD specs, but later on as more becomes known, the Vegas AVC encoders may be the ones NOT to use?... At the moment I’m not entirely optimistic new templates alone will make BD in Vegas/DVDA a wonderful place to be. ;-)

“Sony does not support m2t files for Blu Ray - the footage has to be converted using the Blu Ray templates. But the Blu Ray templates of the mpeg2 mainconcept encoder generates footage that must not be recompressed at all.”

While DVDA5 won’t accept m2t(s), mpg2 is mpg2 is mpg2. Turn it into mpg “without re-encoding” & DVDA5 takes it... the difference is in the packaging of the encoded mpg2, which I’m fairly sure DVDA5 discards anyway - ‘least that’s the way it works with SD DVDs, & BD seems the same, including the BD m2ts it encodes. When you import mpg2 as m2v, DVDA scans the file for info & writes that data to a separate file... from then on everything behaves as usual if you’ve got a good file. Import the identical file with the added stream info, IOW as an mpg, & DVDA’s as happy as a pig in ... well you get the idea. (& no offense intended to anyone). The difference is as an mpg, DVDA doesn’t *Have* to do the indexing.

TO encode m2t in Vegas, you omit the extra stream info and create a transport stream instead of program file [last tab of custom encoder dialog] - to create m2v you omit the data & create a program stream - to create mpg you create a program stream with the extra data - it’s like riding in a 2 door coupe or 4 door sedan, the video still gets to the same place. ;-)

With Vegas mpg2 encoding, the BD templates obviously weren’t intended for DVDA5 but maybe exclusively B/Print. Personally I don’t care, ‘cause I’m about as likely to pony up the cash for B/Print as I am to win the lotto. For other sources, when/if you already have m2t(s), use one of the utilities and convert - same optionally with m2v - there are plenty depending on your source, but the one to use does depend on your source.
alk3997 wrote on 7/16/2008, 9:23 PM
I'm really down to one major issue with DVD-A 5.0 for my own work. I've worked at finding (through trial and error) files that will work with DVD-A 5.0 without re-rendering (transcoding). Basically I've gotten 720p MPEG2 elementary streams to work properly all the way through burn. AC3 was also accepted without modification.

My problem with DVD-A 5.0 continues to be the 1080i files that end up with sound at a normal rate but the picture is updating at approximately 1Hz. The file is a ~30mbps MPEG2 elementary stream and others have reported that other 1080i files have the same problem.

So, maybe my earlier criticism was too strong. It looks like 720p is good but I sure am finding it difficult to use 1080i. BTW, the file that would not work with DVD-A 5.0 was compliant using NeroVision and DVDPro HD. So, I've seen this file run on a Blu-Ray player.

If I could get 1080i to work, I could transfer my work to DVD-A 5.0.