Inconsistent Vegas!

8 Imaginations wrote on 2/8/2006, 5:53 AM
I have posted several times now about the issues I have been having with Vegas. I have done all I can do and now assume it is Vegas itself... I have tried all the wacky settings recommened, I have tried a re-install. I have tried a complete OS re-install. All with the same ending results - Vegas is inconsistent!

If I take a project and put a few standard DV clips in the time line and all is good. The preview is stable at 29.97. Work for a while and then throw and effect on. It starts to crawl. Go back to another clip without the effect, still crawls. I then remove the effect and all is good on that clip, but the clip that that never had the effect still crawls. I change from Good (auto) to Preview (auto) and all is good. Edit for a bit and add another effect or even just a transition and then the preview drops to 8 FPS again. Change to Good (auto) and back in shape.... I can't get a consistent good preview with minimal effects or transitions. Even somtimes with just clips and no effects it crawls!

Windows XP Pro (SP2 and all updates)
Vegas 6c
Standard DV footage captured with Vegas
Project seetings match footage
Tried the lowering the Ram preview and threads option many times
I have an Intel 3.2 Dual Core with Hyperthreading
2 gigs of ram
I monitor my CPU and Pagefile as well. When it gets down to 8fps I am only at 56% CPU and and half my page file.
My Video drive is a seperate SATA raid from the Application drive and OS drive

All my other applications are rock solid and speedy as can be (well, as speedy as Photoshop can be :)

It just seems buggy (and I have read many others have to do this) that I have to either move clips on a time line to get back to 29.97 or change the preview setting from time to time in order to just watach what I have created...

I am begging one last time if anyone has a suggestion that I have yet to try or have yet to hear from.

As a side note. I purchased this computer just for editing with Vegas because my single core P4 3.2 did the same thing and I assumed a faster computer would help. Boy was that a bad decision. Why does an application like Vegas that says it all depends on the power of your computer never use more than 60% of my CPU power!!!!

Comments

farss wrote on 2/8/2006, 6:35 AM
I don't have an answer but have to admit I've noticed something similar on my dual Xeon system. During encoding the CPUs never manage over about 75% and none of the disks are running flat out either.
But then again I've had the same thing happen with WMP and 720p, at times it'll play the file as smooth as silk and on the odd times only manage 1fps. Close the player and run the same clip again, perfect!
In your case if you're using mobo RAID 0 that could account for something, as I understand it that form of RAID can use a lot of CPU power, in my case I have a separate RAID controller.
Bob.
CDM wrote on 2/8/2006, 7:21 AM
this is really weird. I have basically the same setup and I have never seen this... what is your Video Card?

I am using Vegas right now to edit and mix and master a short and am experiencing no preview problems at all. I must say that in general I preview in Preview (auto) all the time unless I specifically need to see better resolution, but I find that even on better res, it's useless unless I'm watching on an external monitor.
8 Imaginations wrote on 2/8/2006, 7:25 AM
I am using a NVideo Geforce 6800 chipset.

Even if I use Preview (auo) all the time this issue still occurs. In fact sometimes I will use 720x480 - then when the problem occurs if I shrink down to 320x240 play the timeline then go back to 720x480 all is good....
David Jimerson wrote on 2/8/2006, 7:28 AM
The video card doesn't matter.

Are you running anything in the background?

Are you sure you applied the effects to the clip and not the preview window or the tracks?

Did you crop the clips at all? Are the clips widescreen on a 4:3 project, or vice-versa?

Is the opacity slider on the track at 100%?

You should not be having this problem, of course; like many others, I have run Vegas for years and not had any problems -- and the problems I have found disappeared once I triple-checked everything and removed any funky goings-on (like some of those listed above).
8 Imaginations wrote on 2/8/2006, 7:36 AM
I have quadruple checked everything!

The clips are 4:3 as is the project.

No cropping.

No opactacity. But even if I apply the opacity and it begins to crawl, if I put the opacity back it will still continue to crawl (sometimes) and I have to do one of the whacky methods to get it back to normal.

I am running a few items in the background, but even if I disable all of them I still have these issues. But how do background items hurt me on a dual core especially when I still have %40 cpu open?

If I didn't like the UI and functionality of Vegas, I would dump it in a heart beat for premiere cause I don't have these problems with it!
BrianStanding wrote on 2/8/2006, 7:43 AM
I'd run through the usual suspects, first:

1. Anything running in the background, particularly anything that needs disk access? Windows indexing, auto play, anti-virus, anything from Symantec and Nero Scout are common culprits. Check Task Manager and eliminate all unnecessary processes.

2. Do you have DMA enabled on all drives?

3. If these are removable drives, do you have them configured for performance, rather than for quick removal?

EDIT: Also, make sure your Windows Temp folder and Vegas preview files are not set to your boot drive.

dmakogon wrote on 2/8/2006, 7:48 AM
A slight reach, but... Would one of those background processes happen to be anti-virus software?

I am still on Vegas 4, so I don't know how Vegas 6 deals with temporary disk file writing. Having said that: if Vegas is using the disk while performing rendering / transitions / etc., things could get bogged down by antivirus software, especially with real-time disk scanning. I know that Symantec and MAcafee both have this feature. Both of these products also allow you to exclude specific directories from scanning (I set this up in my software development environment and in my video output directories). The antivirus software doesn't really chew up that much CPU, but it does slow down general disk-writing (it can pretty much slow a database server to a crawl).

So... if Vegas is writing to a specific temporary directory, you may want to exclude that directory from virus scanning. Or, maybe just disable real-time disk scanning temporarily and see if that helps.

David
David Jimerson wrote on 2/8/2006, 7:59 AM
That's not a slight reach. Anti-virus software will bleed off your system like a starved vampire.
8 Imaginations wrote on 2/8/2006, 9:00 AM
I understand the Anti-virus culprit. I just removed Norton that I normally disable when editing to see if this matters. Nothing! Still the same old issues... Not too mention I build a Dual Core with sepearte drives and a raid to at least handle an App and a few background items. I understand the disk access portion, but with 2 gigs of ram and SATA raid and two processors a frame rate of 5fps in Preview (auo) is a joke.

Also, I have internal SATA drives as someone asked, what mode they are in I am not sure.... Does SATA have the same mode concept as IDE? Where do I check and what should they be at.

I haven't checked if the temp folder for vegas is on the Sata or not, where is this setting?

Windows temp is the same is the windows drive which from what I have read is the best method for windows...

JJKizak wrote on 2/8/2006, 9:04 AM
1.....Make sure your DMA settings say "6".
2.....Open up advanced in your system and uncheck all of the boxes
that list all of those cutsey things like mouse trails, etc.
3.....Make sure in Vegas options you have recompress selected.
4.....Trash all anti-virus software on your machine.
5.....Check for "double installed windows files"
6.....Go into your bios settings and see what the video card is set for.
Set it for max.
7.....Go into windows explorer and delete all Sony and Sonic Foundry
set up files.
8.....Make absolutely sure all of your hard drives are set to NTFS.
I repeat--Do not use fat 32 under any circumstances. My opinion.
9.....You are obviously making the same mistakes with this computer as
the old one.
10...When you say new computer, does that mean all new or were
there some components transferred from the old one?

JJK
ForumAdmin wrote on 2/8/2006, 9:06 AM
"Work for a while and then throw and effect on. It starts to crawl. "

What effect? Sony? 3rd party?

Also: In prefs> video> dynamic ram preview. What is that set to?
Former user wrote on 2/8/2006, 9:20 AM
You mention that you have Norton's Antivirus (Symantec) -- do you have the full Internet Security Suite installed or just Antivirus?

Security Suite is a huge system hog and very unstable. I do IT work and, invariably, anyone with the complete suite has problems. I have isolated a big chunk of the problems to Norton's protected trashcan application. One of the things the protected trash app does is constantly scan for certain file extensions being deleted or modified. For example, Photoshop can suffer a huge performance hit due to .lst files being included in the scans (you need to add the .lst file extension to the Norton's protected trash "ignore" list).

But that being said, I usually completely remove the entire suite product and reinstall just the Antivirus module. That seems to alleviate most performance (and stability) issues. I have been using Norton's Antivirus (the standalone version) for years on various NLE / 3D Graphics PC platforms and haven't any problems (performance or otherwise).

Jim
johnmeyer wrote on 2/8/2006, 9:27 AM
1. Can you post a VEG file somewhere?

2. Third party plugins (see ForumAdmin post) can be a killer. There is one popular one (which I won't name here) that can cause big problems. Open the fX dialog for an event and look at the plugins. Do they all say "Sony?"

3. Check the temp file setting in Vegas (Options -> Preferences).
rmack350 wrote on 2/8/2006, 10:06 AM
Don't know what to say. The fact that the problem can go away when you change the preview size back and forth suggests that it's an issue with Preview RAM. However, If you're setting the preview RAM to 0 and it's still happening that's wierd.

I have to assume that this is a disc I/O issue. I wonder if there's a good way to isolate this? The behavior is very much like how Vegas behaves when the RAM preview is set too high and the system is writing a page file during playback. In that situation the problem goes away temporarily when you change the preview mode back and forth.

Sorry to say it but the two consistant things are Vegas and You. My guess is that there is someting that you specifically do when you set up a system and it's backfiring.

How about a full page file partition or perhaps a fixed size page file that's full?

Misplaced jumpers on an PATA disc? Bad PATA cable setup (Master on end, Slave in middle). Mix of PATA HDD and ODD on the same cable?

Were both systems built by the same person?

Really a shot in the dark here but what are the file associations for your media? What's the default app for your avi files?

Rob Mack
8 Imaginations wrote on 2/8/2006, 10:17 AM
Thanks again everyone for trying to help. I will answer as much as I can that has been posteted recently.

1. DMA Setting 6 - not sure, is this in the bios or in windows?
2. I have put windows down to performace over looks and basically dummied it down to windows 95. No improvement at all so I put it back to let windows decide (again I can't belive this is necessary with a machine this powerful)
3. Recompress - not sure on this I will look for it (where in prefrences is this)
4. Trashed Norton and tried that, no improvement. Now run AVG like recommended on this forum
5. Double installed windows file? not sure where do I look...
6. My video card (PCIe) is set to max
7. Delete all setup files?
8. I never use anything but NTFS
9. Hope it is just a mistake and not Vegas (I may have higer expectations of realtime preview than the rest of you)
10. Brand new computer (not ported over parts)

I am using no special plugins or fx, all what vegas has. We are talking black and white or something like that after a dissolve or 2 and mapy a opacity change. I know opacity is a big one, but I should be able to get somewhat of a decent frame rate.

I have tried all the ram preview mumbo jumbo stuff as well.

It is a Dell (let's not trash that right now) and all other applications inluding premiere and After Effects function awesome so I doubt there is a bad cable or Jumper setting wrong. Not that dell is perfect, but I think they would setup the raid right (again, no jokes here) :)

File association, either Windows Media or Quicktime, haven't looked.

Posting a VEG file won't help, it is random and works on anything VEG file. I just grab random clips and work for a while and all is good. Then add an effect and a transition, Watch it and bang - it crawls. It may go away or may not...


johnmeyer wrote on 2/8/2006, 10:24 AM
Is external preview enabled? If so, do you have other things (like external drives) on the Firewire bus? I have had exactly these problems when doing external preview. In addition, I have had similar problems when previewing from video stored on a Firewire drive. From your description, I don't think this applies, but I thought I'd ask.
Logan5 wrote on 2/8/2006, 11:03 AM
When you have a clip that plays back slow without any effects -

Try this…delete your video clip “companion” .sfk file (it will be located right next to your video file on your hard drive) and then check your play back.

Also you can try deleting the .sfk file then save & close your project then re open it and check play back.

Hope that helps.

Strategic
BrianStanding wrote on 2/8/2006, 11:08 AM
I'll second johnmeyer's observation. Ever since I installed XP SP2, firewire implementation on Windows has been abysmal. What used to be bulletproof is now a mess of conflicts, disappearing drives, and yes, preview slowdowns. Make sure you have only 1 firewire device per IEEE 1394 card... anything else on the chain seems to bog it all down. I've switched almost entirely to ATA drives in removable caddies because of this...

Makes you wonder if Bill Gates didn't deliberately cripple firewire in SP2 to force more people to use USB 2.0!
JJKizak wrote on 2/8/2006, 11:10 AM
1...The DMA setting is in the device manager under hard drive controller.
2....Recompress is in the Vegas options file under Video
3....The setup files will be under Sony Setup in the program files folder in Windows Explorer on your "C" drive.
4....The double file bit is a tough one and the probability is very low unless you have countless installs of windows.

JJK
apit34356 wrote on 2/8/2006, 11:26 AM
there was a problem with 1934 in the XPsp2 update for some systems. On the MS website knowledge database you can find and download the needed patches. I had to patch two out of my nine xp systems. I, like Brian, suspect MS is trying to push 1394 into the "void" and make all manufacturers use USB. 1394 is identify with Apple and Sony, far too much for the MS crowd.
8 Imaginations wrote on 2/8/2006, 11:49 AM
I do not use any firewire drives for vegas. I have an Ipod that is Firewire and I capture Firewire. I do not use firewire as a preivew device. Unless that is turned on as a default I did not turn it on. I do use my 2nd display from time to time as a preview but not an external monitor through firewire.

Logan5 wrote on 2/8/2006, 11:54 AM
8 Imaginations

Have you tried deleting the .sfk file(s) mentioned in my above post?
jkrepner wrote on 2/8/2006, 12:08 PM
What happens when you do preview via firewire? Can you set your DV camera or deck as the output device and run a test?

I remember you posted your problems a couple of weeks ago, sorry you can't get this resolved. *hint hint* maybe someone from Sony Media will actually read this and take two seconds to read your previous post and offer some advice. (Don't count on that one)

edit: and not the "what's your RAM preview" response from Sony Forum admin above.
8 Imaginations wrote on 2/8/2006, 12:09 PM
I am not currently in front of my edting machine that is at home so I have not tried that yet. But this happens from random project to random project. From random file to random file. If at any given moment I had to go delete a file just to get the application to work right, I mine as well splice film together, that would be quicker. Unless you had something else up your sleeve??? I find fixes that seem to work randomly, I am just hoping someone else has had this issue and says, oh yeah - change the Flux Capacitor setting and you should be good to go.

Unless I have a bad ram stick that only Vegas seems to hate, or like I said I am expecting too much out of Vegas I am at a loss. I guess it would help to see a video of someone using Vegas and see if that is just how it works...