What's the point with cert programs.
I have been editing in Vegas since version, I do some TV work, the will want me to pay to have a peice of paper that's worth nothing ?

Ouch! A blow against education everywhere...Like everyone else, I've met vets, dr's, lawyers, marketing mavens, MBA's, and other "papered" people that are morons and idiots.

But certification programs, if administered from a real company, with genuine credibility (like Sony) has a cert program, it's worth a lot. Apple alone has proven this over and over again, as has Avid. As has Discreet, as have many other companies. Pixar won't even look at you if you aren't certified. They have assistance programs to get you certified.
Certification, like a Masters or Bachelors degree, assure that you sat your butt through the classes and demonstrated that you heard what was said. That's the baseline, and that's valuable. Creativity on top of that goes a long, long way too.

So...while you can be indeed great, that piece of paper is worth far more than nothing in the real world, opinions aside.

Well, I can understand this, but for someone who already knows the program very well it's a waste of time and money....
I'm not against education at all, but when you need to pay and learn something you already know to get a peice of paper, this is where I don't follow...

Thanks for the opinions.

Spot, you hit it on the head. Certification although it may just be a paper, opens doors and gives you the chance to at least show people what you are capable of. This has been the biggest hurdle. Not the quality of work, but the perception that because you are not using a Indusrty reconized power house program like Avid, you simply are not worth the look. Those who have looked past that or simply don't know or care about the different programs, usually are very happy with the finished product.

In my opinion, (and i have used Adobe,Avid and Pinnacle products over the years) there is simply nothing that comes close to the ease of use and total functionality of Vegas and when you are in business for yourself, it means a lot to be able to get jobs in and out in a timley manner while producing high quality work. It may not have every possible perk yet but i have found that 98% of the time it is more than capable of doing what i need it to do.

I look forward to becoming certified and using that as a selling point rather than trying to explain that Sony really is a very high end product. No it is not as powerful as some of Avids systems but like you said, it will get there and i for one will be proud to say i edit with it and all of Sony's products for that matter.

Thanks again.

I have said this before, and I will say it again.

Until Vegas gets hardware support for VTR control, other than just firewire, it won't be taken seriously. The main distribution and storage medium is still tape. Digital betacam and Beta SP are the main distribution formats. You have to be able to capture and output, with timecode accuracy to these formats. If they do this, then they could possibly rule the world.

Dave T2

Nat,

I agree that paying to have someone give you paper that says what you already know seems dumb. The problem for a small business owner lies in that most of the time, if you really want to sell yourself and you capabilities, it helps to have that paper. Look at all the jobs out there where if you don't have a degree, you don't even get to walk in the door. I believe realworld, on the job experience is far more valuable then sitting in a classroom for most professions (i perfer my doctor to actually go to class...lol) but unless you you somehow get your work seen and have them come to you, it is much harder to sell your abilities. The paper at least helps you get in the door. The rest is up to you and how talented you are. Ultimatley, that is what keeps you working, your talent.

Seattlebk

Agreed.
I had not considered that but i think you are right on. Do you know or have you heard if this is something they are working towards. I would think that as big a company as Sony is, it would be something worth there time,especially if they are pushing other things like HDV. It would make more sense to be compatible with what it used now. I wonder sometimes if Sony is working towards a whole new program, something seperate from Vegas and something that would directly compete with the big boys.

I'm in the process of learning Avid, and FCP. I plan to get a cert in each one - just to have. My Avid demo, of course, will be cut on Vegas.

Life is unfair.

Spot, when you say " Sony will be providing a cert program " with such certainty, what kinda insider info you got about this ? Gotta say I like the concept and would love to have " Sony Certified " on my website.

- Ray

www.undergroundplanet.com

Seatllebk.. your first post in this topic describes my problem exactly/ I've been posting similar stories here every once in a while, because this is a big problem in Europe.

I agree with Spot and yourself that a certification is important.

I disagree with Spot asking why you're calling Avid and Adobe in one sentence. Why? Of course Avid and Adobe Premiere 'cannot be compared'.. but the truth is that many production houses here in The Netherlands DO edit with Premiere. And that next to AVID and FCP, Adobe Premiere IS accepted as a 'fine NLE to work with for television'. It DOES have that name in the real working environment here. Its AVID, FCP and Premiere. Maybe it's considered less then Avid and FCP, but it is considered and accepted to get jobs. And THAT's what Seattlebk is talking about. Vegas doesn't count.

I agree that Sony should have the possibility to work with digibet/SDI. Even more, I think that considering the fact that most if not all Digibeta players/recorder are Sony equipment, as well as a lot of other broadcast-studio stuff, these departments should be working together a bit more in the ideal world.. I was a bit pissed off when I posted here telling and asking for help because MTV Netherlands was installing Vegas for a try-out, all I got back was: Sorry, right now Vegas doesn't support Decklink card officially, no drivers available. In my opinion, if I were from the Vegas department, I would give these guys a call saying: I heard you are trying out, can we be of any help? Should we send someone over? A bit exegerated maybe but hey.. you want it to play a big role or not?

I even had my doubts about that when I read a post from SonyEPM, also about the decklink support. He said they've been testing with Vegas, editing from digibeta/SDI, and then FINISHING the product in a high-end NLE : Xpri.
I really got the impression (especially when there was more Xpri then Vegas at IBC this year) that they are still trying to let Xpri compete with Avid, instead of Vegas. Believe me, this will never work (at least not in Holland). I really hope Sony will choose ONE of them, put all their energy and effort in that one instead of failing with both. I hope it's Vegas. It's even more well-known here than Xpri :)

Finally I can only agree with Seattlebk.. I really think about also learning Avid and FCP, just to get jobs. And as long as no-one is sitting next to me I'm planning on secretly using Vegas...

mark

There's much to agree about in all of these threads!

I am an avid Vegas User and Strong Supporter of Sony. But, last fall - I was forced into Buying a G5 Mac and FCP - - Just for the Betacam Support. My primary source media is Betacam and I did not have the luxury of waiting for Sony to help facilitate drivers for the then Blackmagic Decklink Cards and other hardware devices.

Many of us have raised the issue to Sony to raise the bar over DV I/O. This should have seen and forcasted, long ago. Rest assured that they now know what the pros need and pro support will arrive.

As for certificaton - I laughed at SPOT's remark - - because I too know papered people who are worthless souls.

Certification - Will be good for those who understand it's value. And, scary for those who don't.

Jay Mitchell

As a business owner, certifications are a very needed base line. If i dont have that what do i go off of? an individualy made certifiication that is often called a resume? I need somtihing to prove that they at least are not BSing me about there base qualifications. I hire CCNA, MCSE, and Linux certified profesionals. These certifications at least show me they have a base knowedge of what they are saying they know, from there i can then base there knowegde on a lot of othere things.(experiance, tests etc.). If you are a profesional that will be working for other people, then a certification is a great benifit. If you are a person that is working for yourself, then a certificate might be considered a waste.

Example I dont have any certs( im the owner), but i teach My CCNA Mcse, and linux guys the real world of our industry. But i rarely hire anybody that doesnt have there certs.

Sony cert for what ? Dv editing. Dont know who that would impress. Untill there is some sort of hardware support, decklink etc, seems silly.
When and if that happens.........

Well all this might be fine and dandy in the good ol' US of A but bits of paper are pretty bloody wothless down here. In fact as someone who used to have hire and fire authority in another industry let me assure you whne the CVs came in the were sorted in decending order of the number of bits of paper.
Here clients pay for product, I and most of the up and coming young stirrers quote for a job, not per hour but for completed, accepted product. I'm doing many jobs for 10% of what the established 'studios' are quoting and I still think I'm ripping the client off. Of course there's a lot of long established businesses closing their doors as I'm not alone in how I work.
I think this explains why this country (and a few others lately) are taking so much work away from Hollywood.
I'm not knocking 'certification' or learning, far from it but as SPOT has rigtly said without real world experience the reality is it means zip. I'm certain a lot of the snobbery over what something was done on or with comes from a desire to maintain the status quo but in this industry that is a foolish position to take, who can even vaguely guess what this industry will be like in 5 years.

Bob.

My employers have been working on a doc for a couple of years and have hired editing consultants (Fixers) from time to time. Not once have they required these editors to be able to use the house system, Media 100. Rather, they were hired for their storytelling expertise and referee skills.

Don't worry so much about riding a tool to your success. Be open to several tools and just be a good storyteller.

Rob Mack

"Sony cert for what ? Dv editing. Dont know who that would impress. Untill there is some sort of hardware support, decklink etc, seems silly.
When and if that happens......... "

Whoa! I don't shoot DV anymore and I still use Vegas.

My Decklink card inputs 10-bit uncompressed 4:2:2 (like DigiBeta but twice as good because no 2:1 compression :O) via SDI perfectly, using its own capture utility. I drop this on the Vegas timeline and life is good.

After editing (often faster than DV as Vegas doesn't have to uncompress and recompress each frame), I use Vegas to render to 4:2:0 MPEG-2 for DVDs, which currently takes 50% longer than realtime because I didn't set up my disks optimally. As soon as I have fixed that, I should render faster than realtime.

I have always thought that Vegas is addictive, now I'm glad that it has a flexible architecture so I can still do what I want.

Note that 10-bit YUV maps about 1:1 to 8-bit RGB (you have to do the math to see why). This can then be output to 10-bit YUV again if needed for say DigiBeta, using the excellent BlackMagic codecs for example. Of course you have to do it raw (until Sony releases the deck control feature), but that may be acceptable, depending on what you use it for.

Of course it would be nice if Vegas used 10-bit arithmetic internally also, but then I think it would be slowed down too much at this time. Even the XPRI system doesn't do 10-bit internally, and that's at a nearly $100K price point.

No disrespect intended , I make my living using vegas for at least 75% of my editing, just meaning if someone is trying to get a job at a posthouse a cert as a DV editor is in my opinion pretty much worthless. Of course I've been wrong before.

Real interesting stuff coursedesign

Rob,
very good point. If you're looking for a salaried job then I'd say Avid certifcation might be pretty vital but outside of TV stations I'm suspecting the number of those jobs is diminishing anyway. Even if i had the money there's no way I'd open a post house that paid use salaried editors, there just isn't that stability in the indusrty to make it viable.

I think what people need to decide is where in the industry they want to 'work', Avid and Discreet rule the roost in the online world and Vegas will never, ever touch that. But in the offline world where time isn't so much of the essence it's pretty much anything goes. Here people buy content and the time frame goes from live to hours / years. These are two very different worlds though and before you even talk about the toolset you need to think about what it's like as a working environment before you plan your career path. Switching vision live to air or to tape with a director over your shoulder is way, way different to anything you'll ever experience using any NLE.

Bob.

This entire thread brings to mind a story told me by a local post house owner. He had a guy apply for a job at his place who was "Avid certified" with certificate and all. The only (??) problem was that he couldn't cut a story or a commercial to save his life. Knew all the right buttons to push but had no storytelling sense whatsoever. I'd rather take someone who had a great Windows Moviemaker reel, give him/her some training on Vegas/Avid/FCP/Premiere and turn them loose.

Mike

Very glad to hear this works, maybe going down the same path in the very near future. Only for output to DVD and we have plenty of J3 decks, hm, might even buy one as they're going cheap as everyone wants the J30 but if I can ingest thru SDI then I don't need the 1394 capability.
I'm hoping Sony will see fit to support some of the Bluefish cards as well, some of them look very yummie and we're going to need the output to go from HDV to HDCAM decks or should I start saving for a XPRI?

Bob.

XPRI .

Rob, in this situation, the tools may not matter. But there is a difference between hiring someone to DO a job, and hiring someone FOR a job. (such as a full time edit position).

Look through the trade magazines and online video job sites. I have never seen anyone looking for a Vegas Video editor. (except for that guy on this site recently). It is always FCP and Avid.

Dave T2