Intermediate codecs: PicVideo MJPEG vs, Cineform

LReavis wrote on 5/21/2009, 5:22 PM
Given the difficulty of outputting Cineform in V9, I've spent a couple of hours comparing PicVideo MJPEG with Cineform in V8 (PicVideo works well in V9 32bit, and they sell a 64-bit version too - which I haven't tested). First, I selected an area on the timeline that had a mix of high motion, a high quality still, skin tones, blue sky, trees, etc.

Since both codecs use intraframe compression, I expected no difference in high-motion vs. still; confirmed.

Next, I put a hi-res still (6310x4827) on the timeline of V8b and it immediately crashed. I opened it up again and the gods were with me: I was able to compress a short selection with both codes, plus uncompressed.

Results
I consistently got faster renders with PicVideo (Cineform required about 50% more time).

File size:
PicVideo typically was about 20% smaller when its quality slider was set for 19 (on scale of 20, with full 1920x1080, square pixels). With the slider at max (20), PicVideo files were about 3 times as large as Cineform. Because of the large file size, I considered PicVideo unsuitable at that setting for use as an intermediate and did not conduct further tests (although uncompressed, full 1920x1080 renders were about 2.5 times as large as PicVideo at 20, with same resolution).

Quality
After a single render, I could not see any difference between Cineform, uncompressed, and PicVideo - even when I captured a frame grab from each and put them in Photoshop. However, by the 6th generation, Cineform was a tiny bit better, IMO. Notice the street lamp post, for example, in the following images (tiny selections from one full frame). . . first, the cineform image:



Now the PicVideo after 6 generations (you may need to download and open in Photoshop to really see the difference):



Given the very suttle difference after 6 generations, I'd settle for PicVideo as an intermediate. If you don't find the image adequate, you could go with PicVideo set for 20 instead of 19. I paid about $30, but now the price is $99.
http://www.accusoft.com/pvmjpegpricing.htm

Comments

rmack350 wrote on 5/21/2009, 5:43 PM
I'm not sure what the exchange rate is or whether this version of the codec is what you want, but it looks like it's sold here as well:

http://www.resolume.com/shop/codec.php

Rob Mack
LReavis wrote on 5/21/2009, 5:55 PM
Wow! U.S. $39.94 for same Version 4. I hope they have the 64-bit version by the time I really need it . . .
blink3times wrote on 5/21/2009, 7:08 PM
Eugenia did a work up on intermediated a while back. You might get something out of this:

http://eugenia.gnomefiles.org/2008/09/15/intermediate-codecs-the-face-off/
jabloomf1230 wrote on 5/21/2009, 8:10 PM
Probably your next best bet, at a low price is Morgan MJPEG2000. Here's a thread from HV20.com, comparing it to Cineform:

http://www.hv20.com/showthread.php?t=3246

Here's the Morgan website:

http://www.morgan-multimedia.com/

Don't confuse MJPEG2K with MJPEG, which is a different codec.

CClub wrote on 5/21/2009, 8:29 PM
FASCINATING link to the Eugenia "Codec face-off"... thanks for that, Blink. It appears that Eugenia is recommending not to go with the MJPEG codecs. On the Morgan website, everything with the MJPEG 2000 appears to be dated back in 2007; not sure if that brings me much comfort.

Is the DNxHD codec even an option within Vegas?
LReavis wrote on 5/21/2009, 9:13 PM
update on PicVideo comparison: I found a high-motion video (scenery shot from a moving train through the window, with sony HC-1) and compressed with Cineform in V8.

Cineform framerate playback in V9, best-half, not scaled to fit window: almost 29.97 fps except for brief moments when it would fall slightly. Playback with PicVideo, mostly 25 fps. Cineform plays better with V9 on my Q6600/2.7 gHz than PicVideo.
Streamworks Audio wrote on 5/21/2009, 9:28 PM
DNxHD is a free intermediate codec from Avid - however it is only for Quicktime which Vegas can access through it's Quicktime API. The codec comparsion link is an excellent review of the codecs... one thing though I find a tad misleading - the DNxHD is not slow because of Quicktime - it more of the API in Vegas to Quicktime is not the best. Quicktime itself is fine - but Quicktime cannot optimize a 3rd party API (for Sony, qt7plug.dll) - too bad because this is an amazing codec to use in other applications!