Vegas in its current form is not an offline editor in the Media Composer 400/1000/2500 (or whatever) sense of the term and it was not designed to be. If you want to use beta sp, your best bet is probably the Promax DAMAX+... you get serial deck control over 1394, accurate timecode from the beta tapes, some proc amp tools...but even then you should plan on FINISHING in Vegas and not onlining elsewhere. I've used this unit- works pretty well.

As far as Premiere goes, Filmy I think knows this already or should: the new version of Premiere has DITCHED both serial deck control and edl export. I believe there is some level of AAF project export - not sure how well it works. Premiere Pro, like Vegas, is very much DV-centric now... say goodbye to the analog cards like digisuite etc unless some 3rd party wants to take that on.

Filmy - I had done some preliminary searching of the forums but most of the EDL talk seemed to revolve around problems with DV timecode. I'll do a search with your suggested terms--thanks!

______________________

SonyEPM - Of course I can't locate it now, but Vegas used to be touted as "able to work from DV-to HD" or something along those lines. Granted, that may have been from users and not a company line--I don't recall. It was pushed as resolution independent--that you could work uncompressed if you wanted to.

I simply don't understand that workflow. How are people using Vegas for more than DV? How are they injesting footage? The promax unit costs nearly 4 times as much as I paid for Vegas! The only reason I would buy the promax right now is to add serial control--something Avid Xpress comes with out of the box! FCP includes serial control out of the box as well. I had not heard about Premiere losing serial control.

*If* Sony's intent is to develop Vegas strictly for the DV market, great. Tell me now so I can put it in the closet and purchase Avid Xpress. And please instruct your sales reps so they don't tell us exactly the opposite at your trade shows.

I would like the option to use Vegas as a finishing tool, but I need timecode. I need to be able to RECREATE projects at the drop of a hat--clients are picky and indecisive. Why would I choose Vegas when your competitors let me use serial control without forking out $2500 (CAD)?

I've cut on Avid for 8 years now--there have been ups and downs. From the little I've used Vegas I'd have to say I like it. It has loads of potential, but unless Sony is willing to listen to its customer's wishes, it won't be expanding its user base.

Avid Xpress is looking mighty fine right about now...

I'd posted this on a couple of other message boards and it seems to be a hot topic, you might want to check it out:

DMN
http://www.dmnforums.com/cgi-bin/displaywwugpost.fcgi?forum=sonic-foundry_vegas&post=031030163056.htm

Creative Cow
http://www.creativecow.net/forum/read_post.php?postid=107018181032398&forumid=24

Amazing that you can download a fully functional demo of Vegas and jump in with both feet buying it not knowing if it meets your needs or not and only THEN complain what he can't do. Utterly amazing. Kind of like going to a dentist and expecting him to take care of your ingrown toenails. Utterly amazing that people still spend $100, 200, 300, 400 and more on some software and never bother to read what the specificiations are on the box or try the demo FIRST. Utterly amazing.

*sigh*

BillyBoy, I'm too tired to keep typing in 3 forums. Please read my other entries and then we can discuss your toenail analogy.

People still user serial control to control VCR's in NLE's? :) I didn't know that! I've controlled DVCPro's via 9-Pin with a computer and an Adtec WinlitNing control box, but never from an NLE with a serial cable. Cool!

With how cheap Vegas is from Avid or FCP, i wouldn't complain. It's a steal at about $350-400 (most places online).

You should try to convince your cleints to go to a more "modern" video format like Digi Betacam or DVCPro. I even think Sony isn't supporting BetaCam anymore (they currently have a deal where you can trade in any BetaCam or UMatic 3/4" for new stuff at a big discount, at least $500 per deck!).

Also, you probley know, and no offence to any of the sony people, but Sony EXPECTS peope who spend thousands (and more) for Betacam (and Digi Beta, DV cam, etc) equipment to spend lots of editing equipment too. The price of a BetaCam player (no record) costs arounf $3500, while a DVCPro that playbacks and records, and is better quality costs about $4500. Remember, "Profesional" decks are for "profesionals" who have big budgets.

But then again, most companies in the US bought BetaCam when it was the best, and now, years later we're stuck with it! :) I talked to a guy from Poland I work for, and he said over there, because of WW2 and the USSR, Poland is more up to date technoligy wise because 1) WW2 destroyed lots of the communication lines and they all had to be rebuilt and 2) because the USSR only allowed them to have 1-2 TV stations, now they are buying all the hightech stuff for new stations. Here in the US we are using really outdated stuff, and noone wants to spend the $ to upgrade!

Hey, if you made your purchase based on false information supplied by Sony people then why dont you call them and ask for a refund---

There is a big difference between puffing common what you hear at trade shows compared to what the product itself claims it does on the packaging or you can check out yourself by trying the demo. That was the point I was making. Its the same as the used car salesmen trying to tell you that the used car you are thinking about buying was only driven by some grandma to go to church on Sundays. If you're that gullible, then you're that gullible.

Jason, using Vegas exclusively, I have made it known up front to my clients whats what, insofar as the working format is concerned. If they have footage on Beta SP, it gets transferred to DVCAM and I dump into Vegas. If they want the master in Beta SP, the final edit gets dumped onto Beta SP (from DVCAM). So far, I haven't had one complaint.

For what's worth . . .

I agree with VideoCurmudgeon - I play the Betacam SP tape through my DV deck using Y/C connection and balanced audio leads into the computer - use a sensible editing package (aka Vegas) and then just place it back onto the Beta SP tape. If you desperately need an 'EDL' then transfer the Beta footage onto DVCam and record it from there using the Batch Capture option in Vegas. I do not understand why you need machine control at all for anything less than digi now - move on! I have never had any complaints as to the quality of the outputs to the Betas and this is material that has been played on massive screens, broadcast, cinemas et al in 4:3, 16:9 (anamorphic output as well!)

DV Cam IMHO is a better quality format than BetaSP it is the cameras and operators often used in the DV format that are the weak points not the format.

The one other pain with using firewire cards is how do you sync the computer effectively to outside sync? Any thoughts on this?

Alex
PS serial control would be useful to have if only to not let the other programs have any edge at all over Vegas!

Jumping in here...wanted some clarification...

Having never worked in BetaSP, Offline/Online, Avid, etc., doesn't NLE with apps like Vegas or Premiere REPLACE the old, expensive way of doing things? I know they're different formats and processes, but isn't the end result a tape with the finished product on it? Maybe my udnerstanding of what "Online" & "Offline" editing is is inaccurate. Could someone clue me in if I'm way off base here?

JAL- hope you stick around. I was an SP guy for many years- best bang for the buck pro format ever released IMO.

You pose an interesting set of questions, which I'll hijack, restate, & pose to this group.

For everybody out there who might know:

What is the cheapest, reliable method of getting SP beta into and out of any of the following apps: Vegas, AVID Xpress, Premiere Pro, FCP 4 (sorry for leaving anybody off).

Requirements:

1) End product must be of broadcast quality. DV/DVCAM or better makes the cut.
2) Logging and Batch capturing using SP beta decks must be supported
3) Source timecode must be maintained throughout capture/edit/recapture scenarios
4) External preview to HW monitor is required
5) Print back to SP tape is required

Note: Equipment price (app, i/o card) must be listed as MSRP

Here's what I know:

Vegas + the Promax DAMAX+ = $559.96 for Vegas (from our website) + $1495 (from Promax' website)= ~$2045. This setup WORKS, I have personally tried it, looks/sounds great going back to SP.

Maybe there's a more cost effective pathway for you, but I don't think so (but I'll admit it if I'm w-w-w-w-w-w-wrong <g>).

ps: Don't forget, with AVID Xpress or FCP (or Premiere, Or Vegas or anybody), you need some sort of a/d - d/a device. The deck might roll under 422, but the signal comes in....where?

Betacam SP tapes support timecode. Normaly when I recieve a BateSP tap at work it has a timecode on it. The spot 00:00:00 normaly relects the very start of the commercial/show. Without a timecode the tape could start at something like 01:59:45. Annoying. Infact, there's one guy who sends us BetacamSP tapes, no timecode and doesn't rewind them!

He's a reall um... mean person. Not because he doesn't rewind, but because he's a mean person in real life.

>>>doesn't NLE with apps like Vegas or Premiere REPLACE the old, expensive way of doing things? I know they're different formats and processes, but isn't the end result a tape with the finished product on it? Maybe my udnerstanding of what "Online" & "Offline" editing is is inaccurate. Could someone clue me in if I'm way off base here?<<<

Yes and no. At this second, if you judge by the sale of NLE's and by people who use some form of 'free' and/or 'bundled' NLE (And that would include things like MS Movie Maker), it is more than likely "yes" more than "no". However Premiere, Avid, D/Vision (Now morphed into discreet) and so on all were there to take higher quality formats and offline edit with files that were not that high quality. The end result would be dumping out a work copy in VHS/S-VHS quality and a common formated EDL that you would either online assemble with your NLE or take to a place that was set for online, normally to 1 " or Betacam. (And before that 3/4" although even at that point 3/4" was being phased out for Betacam) D/Vision, for example, had a few flavors at one point. "Cineworks" was sort of the low end that allowed for deck control, TC capture and output up to S/VHS quality. "online" was limited to re-capture at S/VHS quality once you had "offlined" a VHS, or less than VHS quality, version. "D/Vision" was all this and a bit more, allowing for EDL Export and a very rough DOS based film match back. (You entered in the first frames SMPTE TC and film edge number ad the last frame. The program did the rest. When you fed it the EDL it would convert to negative edge numbers. Clever concept that, at the time , met with a lot of doubters) They sort of started phasing out both of those when they "introduced" "D/Vision Online" which allowed for all of the above but also allowed for both Source and Record deck control. (And in a way that was sort of the root of what "online" vs. "offline" was/is - the deck cotrol - both source and record. With "offline" you didn't have the deck cotrol, you took the edit "offline" from the master onto a computer to do.)

So what you have to understand is that there was a push to be able to get better "multimedia" elements onto computers for things like kiosks and the emerging internet. it was pretty much Quicktime on the Mac side and Video For Windows using the indeo codec on the PC side. D/Vision used the base Indeo codec for it's compression and could export QT files, though not very well. Adobe Premiere worked native on the Mac with Quicktime but on the PC it was sort of hit and miss. Anyhow - somewhere in all of this quality went up, prices went down and everything started to blur. Mini-DV most certianly raised the bar as far as 'home' produced projects went. So really the answer to your question is that the "old school" NLE's, which I would call Avid and Premiere part of, were not there to 'replace' other forms of editing but rather to work hand in hand with them. They also were helping to build the bridge from shooting on film and editing on video *and* outputting back to film (via EDL > Edge number/Matchback > negative conform) as well as outputting to a video master. (As a side - we were looking at a various new NLE's being developed for the Amiga but they all kept crashing. The selling points were real time capture and compression. We went with PC and D/Vision because it had a proven track record with feature films.) My educated guess is that by the time SoFo entered into the NLE game with Vegas Video they were not looking at the same market that Avid and Premiere had, but were looking at the web market and than the Mini-Dv market, or the potential market as firewire/mini-dv was 'new'. I am guessing that Online/Offline did not enter into the whole scenerio because of the lack of certian items.

So - "offline" was editing on a computer in a less than great quality compared to what your final product would be on. "online" was using an EDL for deck control to create some form of higher quality final result - higher quality meaning anything other than VHS/S-VHS quality at the time. In those terms, if you are shooting Mini-DV especially, the concept is a null point. Even with other formats this could be a null point because of cheap hard drives and faster systems than were available 10 - 20 years ago (even 3 years ago really) the ability to capture "broadcast quality" in real time and dump back out "broadcast qulaity" in real time to a format other than VHS/S-VHS and mini-DV is available for rather "cheap".

Wow, a guy goes out for groceries and the board explodes! ;)

I appreciate everyone's comments and suggestions. I think the question you're posing is a great one Sony EPM! Let's hope it generates some discussion.

I was a SP guy for years and then moved on to D-beta (those were the years!). Now I work mainly with SX (changed shops). The freelance shooters in town are almost exclusively SP--hence the format of choice for my last production (cheaper too).

You're right about needing a transcoder of sorts. Sony sells miniature boxes, and Canopus has a few solutions--I went for the ACEDVio as it was cheaper than the Sony box, provided me with a firewire port, and included Vegas Video 4. A hell of a deal. (here's where I get to hear 'you get what you pay for!'")

Trying a demo is usually a good idea, but I'm not sure it would have helped in my case. I didn't have a firewire port, and don't have a Beta deck (I rent when required). Using a demo in this case would not have told me anything about digitizing footage. I wasn't about to rent a deck and conduct a $200 experiment either. So I deferred to my local reseller's advice.

Why am I not hopping mad and demanding a refund? Because I'm happy with the Canopus card. It works very well. I'm actually quite happy with Vegas too--that's what makes it so frustrating. Vegas is 98% of the way to being what I need, but the last 2% is what's crucial.
To me, Vegas was pretty much free. I'd love to make use of it as I really like what it has to offer. If there's only one thing Sony adds to the next version of Vegas--I hope its serial control.

And I don't know if the comparison between local resellers and used car salesmen was intentional, but I enjoyed it nonetheless--more so than they would I'm sure! ;)

SF did aim VV for the web market. At my weekend job they had an old SF catalog from back in '00, and it specificly points out they are selling web/multimedia tools. I belive that they even made a web animation program, didn they?

Gee filmy, you're smart. :) (not being sarcastic)

OK, math has never been my strong point, but here's some numbers I've crunched.

I've converted the dollar amounts to Canadian

http://www.xe.com/ucc/

and it seems like Promax won't give Canadians the same break on the price, so it jumps considerably.

Vegas and Promax $3059.65


Vegas with ACEDVio $742.58
Avid Xpress DV $933.33
----------
$1675.91


Canopus ADVC50 $258.48
Avid Xpress DV $933.33
----------
$1191.81

The highest quality the last two will give you is S-video, whereas the promax will do SDI. In a purely "I want to use this as an offline suite" comparison, I think there's an obvious winner price wise. I've tried out Xpress DV and it works with the ACEDVio. I can't vouch for the ADVC50.

Vegas is scalable which is good. The fact you don't need to buy hardware to *work* uncompressed (you just have to somehow get it in there!) is great. To work uncompressed on Avid you need to buy their "Mojo".

If the Promax Pro media converter ever sees the light of day Vegas will be laughing. In the mean time, you pay* less* than half to work with Xpress DV and serial control.

Maybe if Sony sees these numbers they'll realize how important a sticking point serial control can be. Paying twice the price of the competition to get serial control is beyond crazy. I'd be willing to shell out for a "Vegas Pro". Charge me a similar price to Xpress for software that has serial control. Your product is worth it.

I can only laugh, this same point is going round' and round in the DMN forums.
JAL, you gotta be feeling powerful. I guess I should have copied my much earlier responses from the DMN board over here too.

To tell the truth, I wasn't expecting much of a response!

I've posted topics on the old WWUG before and got nary a reply. This was actually the last place I posted--someone suggested it to me on the cow--or was it DMN? They're all turning into a soupy haze! I've never been fond of company sponsored help forums--I've found community based ones more informative--though I may have to rethink that now...the response here has been phenomenal!

If you're in Canada and need Vegas the best place is www.rsvp.ca.

Spot just posted to my simillar post over at DMN - he says VV was always aimed at the DV market. I didn't remember but he said it did indeed have firewire support in version 1 (which to the best of my recolection was audio only) and that VV was the first to offer it. See I just don't remember it really being marketed as a DV based NLE. If it had been I never would have looked at it because back then I wasn't looking at firewire support.

Jal, were those prices in CA $ or US$? just wondering.

I'll admit to ignorance on this, from what I understand of the process I just don't see the use for it, well outside of some rareified space.
As i understand it the concept is I have a whole bunch of camera tapes, I capture all these or at least those parts I know are likley to be good takes, possibly at a lower res than my final product. I then proceed to edit these. I can then take the EDL from my ofline low cost system, upload it to the online system and produce the finished product.

Sounds pretty much to me like when I once worked with film. Make work print , hack away at it, make answer print from it, if alls well match neg and run release prints.

Have I missed anything so far?

So lets see how this is ever going to work in VV. I get a copy of my camera tapes down converted from HD or whatever. and rip into it. But hey good old VV lets me do all sorts of wonderful things to my images, and I might throw in some FXs by Satish and tweak some audio and well you get the idea. The whole thing looks just great but its still only DV.

But using the missing but "much needed" EDL export i upload into my megadollar HD suite. Someone please explain to me how the hell all the FXs get into the EDL, how the hell my megadollar HD suite is going to know how to do exactly what the FX that Satish write yesterday does, and what the heck happens to source TC if I add a velocity envelope.

So unless someone can convince me otherwise I'm going to dissent on this one and say I don't want VV to do this arcane offline thing. I don't want the developers wasting their time and ultimately my money trying to breath life into a paradigm that should have been laid to rest by now.