issues with first 24p project

pghdog wrote on 12/3/2003, 4:50 AM
i have completed several short projects on vegas that were shot on a vx2000. i now have a dvx100 and am working on my first 24pA piece, which is just a one-minute spot. i have come across several problems that might be related to 24p as they did not occur in the 60i projects. on the other hand, it might just be coincidence that they are appearing in the 24p project. any help would be appreciated

1.when i render the project to a new track the audio becomes very loud, buried in red. then, if i copy the file to a new vegas project, the sound returns to the correct volume. i guess this i not a big deal as it resolves itself but i wonder why it happens.

2. the video and audio is in sync in the preview window on a second monitor but, when outputting to an external monitor, it is not in sync. i am going firewire to a sony dsr-11 and then s-video to a panasonic broadcast monitor. i don't know if this relates to the pull down. i have tried with both 2-3-3-2 and 2-3 files and still no sync. it may be because of the slowness of my computer, which is only a p-3 450 with 384mb ram. i am talking about a rendered project. i do not expect sync on an unrendered file.


3. the most serious problem is that i can not print to tape. when printing to tape i get bars and tone but, as it starts to print, only the first second of sound prints and the rest of the project is silent.

any thoughts?
pghdog

Comments

SonyEPM wrote on 12/3/2003, 7:40 AM
1) Audio is hot because you (probably?) have the mix to new track as well as the orginal playing back simultaneously. Solo the mix tho new audio track- I bet that solves it.

2) Could be the slowness of your computer in conjunction with latency introduces by your hardware chain. Try tweaking the sync offset in the video device pref. Note that you can still get into states where external monitor preview sync gets thrown off a bit, especially with long or fx intensive timelines that require lots of processing horsepower (24p > 60i is proc intensive also). For critical sync work (ADR, or foley, for instance) use the internal preview window. There wll be no issues in the rendered file.

3) I hear about this type of issue with the DSR11 from time to time but many can get it to work, so it's hard to pinpoint. Please make sure you are running the latest update- there was some occaissional flakiness with print to tape in early version of V4, seemed to occur with this deck more than any other.
pghdog wrote on 12/3/2003, 1:42 PM
1. it is hot even when played solo.

2. the rendered file is out of sync.

3. running version 4.0d build 205

pghdog
farss wrote on 12/3/2003, 2:20 PM
Have you removed pullodwn?
That would certainly explain 3), You cannot PTT 24p without pulldown.
How is the audio out of sync?
Is it out a fixed offset or is it running at a different rate?
SonyEPM wrote on 12/3/2003, 2:52 PM
How much is sync off- about a couple of frames? This (~ 2 frames off) is a commonly discussed issue with this camera, a problem for all apps.
farss wrote on 12/3/2003, 8:46 PM
Can I ask how many of the public can pick a two frame error sync error?
pghdog wrote on 12/4/2003, 12:45 PM
i render the file to a 2-3-3-2 pulldown and then print to tape with a 2-3 pulldown as suggested by sony. so i am trying to print to tape with pulldown.

as for the out of sync external monitor, after watching the play back in the external monitor very closely, i have decided that it probably is in sync but that the playback is just stuttering badly. this is probably due to the slow computer.

the only issue i need to resolve is the inability to ptt 24pA. if i can't do that then the program is useless to me.


pghdog wrote on 12/4/2003, 12:49 PM
i have concluded that the sync is not off but that the playback is just stuttering badly.

i still can not print 24p to tape.

i have tried throughout the day to get tech support on the phone. the line has been busy all day. what gives? is it always impossible to get through to them?

pghdog
SonyEPM wrote on 12/4/2003, 1:51 PM
start a new plain vanilla DV project for testing purposes, load some non-24p DV clips. Can you print this to tape without issue?
pghdog wrote on 12/4/2003, 2:16 PM
i can print non 24p clips and did so again, as a test, after this problem started. i had no problem printing non 24p.

i also tried printing some 24p clips with no fx or graphics, as a test, and had the exact same result as with my original 24p project. that is, no sound after a second or less.
musman wrote on 12/4/2003, 11:13 PM
Have you found a soluntion yet? I'm very curious.
farss wrote on 12/5/2003, 1:44 AM
Me thinks you've done something wierd. If the tape was shot 24pA or 24p when you captured it already had pulldown unless you enabled pulldown removal. If you removed pulldown then you only need to reapply it once in the process to get it back ino something that can be PTT.
Apart from the header info on the tape as far as I know there's nothing different about how any of these are written on the tape. The SOURCE of what is written on the tape is diferent but not the way the fields of data are written.
If that all makes sense then I can see no reason why you can PTT normal DV and not your footage, so long as you can feed 60 fields per second to the VCR it's all the same. The difference is whatthe fields contain which realtes back to how the camera created them.

Sorry to labour this point but it seems a very common source of confusion, a bit like the 4:3, 16:9 thing.
pghdog wrote on 12/5/2003, 5:06 AM
i allowed pulldown removal when opening 24p projects. sony recomends editng in 24pA as itis more efficent. they also recomend rendering to 2-3-3-2 before ptt at 2-3. this is all in a sony document regarding 24p and vegas.

as to why i can ptt 60i and not 24p, i am as stumped as you. it is possible i have done something wierd. if so, i need to isolate that wierdness and correct it.
pghdog wrote on 12/5/2003, 5:12 AM
regarding the "flakiness" with the dsr11 and vegas as mentioned in post #2 by sonyepm, was it exctly the same problem as i am having, that is, the loss of audio? or was it something else? and importantly, how was it resolved.
farss wrote on 12/5/2003, 5:42 AM
I really think you've missed or mixed something up. You really need to take a moment to understand the process. Maybe you've misunderstood what Sony had to say.

Sony recommends you shoot in 24pA. This is because the pulldown removal works better, for more info find the article by Adam Wilt. The camera still records 60 fields per sec.

When you capture with pulldown removal you remove the pulldown and merge the fields to get 24 frame per Second, You cannot print this to tape.

To PTT you need to apply pulldown to get back to 60 fields per second. You can do this as 2:3:3:2 or 2:3. Ceratainly 2:3:3:2 is better as you can again remove the pulldown without loss however if you don't plan to read the tape back in again I don't think it'll matter at all. Anyway either way you now have 60 fields per second which will PTT.

If you've understood this and still cannot see what's going wrong render to a new avi using either 2:3:3:2 or 2:3 and bring that into a standard DV project i.e. 60I and from that PTT. Maybe the VCR cannot cope with the 24pA header.

That must PTT, you say you can already do it!
Once you have shot 24p there is no way you can loose the 24p part of the process, so don't worry about going into a standard DV project, this happens all the time, anything transferred from film even though it comes into VV as 60I it is still 24p.
pghdog wrote on 12/5/2003, 10:01 AM
the information i have been using to handle 24p is from a sony publication available on this web site. http://mediasoftware.sonypictures.com/support/productinfo/24p.pdf

they recommend prerendering to 2-3-3-2 and then ptt to 2-3.

i have been trying to follow those guidelines. however i just tried to ptt a 2-3-3-2 prerender to 2-3-3-2 and it did print with full audio although there a few audio glitches. i would like to get rid of these audio problems. i will still try to figure out how to ptt in 2-3

later i will try to drop the captured clips directly to a 60i project and see what happens with that.

i seem to be getting closer.

pghdog
musman wrote on 12/8/2003, 1:00 AM
Can't answer that, but wondered if you've resolved things yet. I've never done this, so I'm guessing here. But, did you prerender the whole project at 2332 before rendering it to 2-3, or did you render it to 2332 and then render it to 2-3? Can't see how this would make any difference though.
pghdog wrote on 12/8/2003, 2:08 PM
i tried both prerendering and rendering to 2332 and neither has enabled me to ptt at 23. i am still working on that and trying to clean of the audio on the ptt to 2332.
pghdog