Dennis:
Thank you for your reply . . . even if you did overlook my mention of 3.0a in my original post (plea) for help. That's ok, I miss stuff all the time. Responding further to your reply, I do use 3.0a, but it never dawned on me to nudge the offending clips (how does one nudge clips? I fine tune alignment by expanding the timeline until clips take on a definite degree of movement when drug with the mouse . . . I assume that movement is frame by frame, though that is only an intuitive assumption on my part . . . if there is yet a finer adjustment, I'm not aware of it . . . please give me more detail on this, thanks).

I have saved my previous veg file, then saved a new version of it, recaptured new source material for all the offending portions (this time, I dubbed the analog to my digi8 first, then captured the converted footage rather than converting from analog to digital through my digi8 camcorder's firewire).

Syncing up those sections took a bit of time, but that's one of VV30's strong points (IMHO), and, once synced, following already established markers/split points to split the new source material and substitute it for what was already on my "master" timeline track was a no brainer.

I'm in the process of rendering the re-worked project now. Initial test renders seem to indicate that this approach has eliminated the choppiness, but, of course, I won't know for certain until the final render can be printed to tape and viewed on a regular TV.

I chose not to use progressive scan to render, although, as a matter of course, I always select 'best' as the render quality, and, when rendering altered (dissolves and other FX, etc) source material, always opt to resample.

Being a "lay" user, I can only speculate as to the causes of my problem, but, (and, please tell me if this suspicion cannot be supported by reality) I've always suspected that somehow, introducing or perhaps mixing native digi8 footage with analog that is simply passed through the digi8 cam and digitized by the digi8 might contribute to these sorts of problems.

In my previous session on this project (performance cast one of two), I dubbed all analog footage to DV prior to capturing except the very last segment which I smply played through the digi8 because I was running out of time allotted for editing that session. Jitters in that session occurred only in one short segment (probably 30 seconds), but the segment was located in that footage that was captured via analog direct through the digi8 firewire.

That's why I suspected that the problem is inherent in the digi8 conversion process, somehow.

In this current session, I didn't dub any analog footage to digi8 prior to capturing (not a wise move on my part, I guess), but captured all analog by playing the tape through my digi8 cam's firewire.

What has surprised me, however, is that the jitteriness shows no preference for the footage that originated analogously. It appears in equal measure within native digi8 as well as "analog" footage.

So, speculating once again, could the act of mixing the two types of footage have anything to do with the introduction of jitters? Some sort of codec-based "antagonism", perhaps?

Just a wild guess.

Thanks again for your help. Further comments/suggestions would be welcome.

Caruso

As to the main issue of your post, can't offer any suggestions but can confirm I've seen it also and have yet been unable to pin down what causes it.

As for nudging, my favorite method is to use the left/right arrow keys on your keyboard. How much of a "nudge" you get depends on how far you zoom in on the timeline. With a little trial and error you should be able to bump the contents of the preview windows one frame at a time, if that's what you'd like.

Analogously? That's a new word for me <g>.

The source of the clips should make no difference.

To nudge by a small amount, turn off Quantize to Frames, and zoom in to where you can see the frame markers in the events. Then, select the event(s), and hit NumPad 4 or 6. This will move the event by one pixel (zoom dependent). If it's the bug that I'm thinking of, which only happened when the media aligned "just right" with the project frames, nudging the event just the tiniest fraction of a frame would fix it. To maintain A/V sync, you could select all your events, zoom in, and hit NumPad 6. Then, they won't move in relation to each other.

With Quantize to Frame on, NumPad 4/6 move by a whole frame, which wouldn't help in this case, except to move where the problems occur <g>.

It might not be the bug I'm thinking of at all, it could be something else. I'll also look into when exactly this bug got fixed. I'm pretty sure it's fixed in 3.0a, but I'll get back with that info.

///d@

Thanks to both of you for following up on this thread. For what it's worth, I've re-rendered my project. In those areas where I substituted re-captured source files, the jitters are gone. There are one or two spots where original footage that didn't jitter before is jittering now (don't know what that indicates), but that footage is in areas where I think it will pass. Of course, in substituting all those cuts, I messed up in one or two areas and will have to go in yet again to make a fix, but, there is a definitive light at the end of the tunnel.

Oh, and, analogously . . . never bothered to look it up, saw it first on this forum, and, grammatically, it works for me, so I use it, LOL.

Thanks for the nudge info . . . will test it out.

Further comments welcome, and, once again, thanks for following up on this thread.

Caruso

Actually it is an existing word, but probably doesn't mean what we're using it for in here.

a·nal·o·gously adv.

    1.Similar or alike in such a way as to permit the drawing of an analogy.
    2.Biology. Similar in function but not in structure and evolutionary origin.
    3.In an analogous manner.

[From Latin analogus, from Greek analogos, proportionate : ana-, according to; see ana- + logos, proportion; see leg- in Indo-European Roots.]

Just a follow-up on the bug I was thinking about, it got fixed in 3.0a, so that's not what is causing this.

Could you describe the "jerkiness" more? How often does it occur, or is it continuous? When it occurs, is it a single frame or a whole bunch?

Could it be a media property set wrong (for instance, interlace set to upper field first instead of lower field first?

///d@

This is the type of jerky output I've seen. Can't recall if it has popped up or not in version 3.a, for sure did in version 3.0. It is a rare bird for me anyhow.

Source: MPEG-1. Would apply my normal assortment of filters, typical editing breaking timeline into events then render out to either VCD or SVCD using the default settings in the included MC templates.

Playback with MediaPlayer other players would result in first minute or two of file playing normally. Later into the video there would be a cycle of roughly 3-5 seconds of normal playback, intermixed with a second or two of severe jerkyness, (I would best describe it as similar to what happens if film gets stuck in a projector for a few seconds) with this cycle repeating through the end of the video regardless how long.

Playing the raw souce file through entire length was totally free of any jitter before doing anything to it. Working on the source file in other editors and rendering, did not introduce any jitter. If run through VirtualDub first or saving as uncompressed in other editors then opened and worked on some more in Vegas, no more jitters.

In my case I suspect transcoding errors, since the source file were always MPEG-1.

>>>how does one nudge clips? I fine tune alignment by expanding the timeline until clips take on a definite degree of movement when drug with the mouse . . . I assume that movement is frame by frame

I can answer this one... to nudge an event frame by frame use ALT + LEFT or RIGHT NUM-ARROW KEYS. (NOT the normal arrow keys)

ALT is the modifier which makes most keyboard functions work frame-by-frame. ALT+ARROWS will move the cursor frame-by-frame. using ALT means you don't have to worry about how far you are zoomed in.

just using LEFT and RIGHT arrows doesn't move frame-by-frame unless you have Quantize to frames turned on and you are zoomed in close enough and it doesn't move the event, just the cursor. without the ALT modifier the events or cursor will move pixel-by-pixel which means the amount of movement is zoom-dependant.

using the mouse doesn't move frame by frame either unless you have Quantize on and are zoomed in sufficiently.

Geez... down boy, heel. <wink>

Didn't say it was the only way or even the best way. My FAVORITE way, that's all.

"As for nudging, my favorite method is to use the left/right arrow keys on your keyboard"

My method you can do with one hand, my other hand is usually preocupied taking a sip of my favorite beverage.

Um, Alt+L/R Arrows just move the cursor, don't they? NumPad 4/6 move (nudge) events.
///d@

What I'm thinking is that the source footage is marked as "progressive" instead of interlaced. In addition, it's actually the reverse field order than what's being rendering. Therefore, for events where the frames "line up" with project output frames, it just happens to work out (field 1 in maps to field 1 out), but when the clips are off by half a frame, the field rendering is taking field 1 from one source frame and field 2 from another, when is causing things to proceeded in a jittery manner (e.g., you're seeing fields 2,1,4,3,6,5 or something like that).

What is the "interlace" property of your source media, and what is the interlace property of your render format? Try messing with the source media interlace property to see if it fixes the problem.

///d@

First things first. My Webster's (alright, it's old, I admit) includes analogy with a list of its modifications, but it does not include the word analog. The adverb form of stereo would be stereophonically (or would it be stereophonicly, nah, I think stereophonically . . . too late to look it up tonight), so, how do I modify analog to use it as an adverb. I really need an answer to this one or I won't sleep tonight. Surely not analogly, perhaps analogophonically, hmm.

As to my footage, I learned the hard way (as many of us did) in the early versions of VV2x to check field order. All my footage was captured/rendered lower field first. The shakiness seems to occur indiscriminately across all three types of source files that are contained in this project (8mm, Hi8mm, Digi8). It generally affects a single clip only, but when it occurs, the entire clip is shaky, whatever its length.

The explanation/nudge to fix solution certainly makes sense to me, although I have not had a chance to try it, but will do so as soon as I finish printing the copies I need to send out of this project . . . replacing the offending clips definitely did the trick, but I like that nudging idea if it works, since it certainly would be much faster, and, especially if I can select all and nudge the entire project.

Which brings up one follow-up question. If I nudge the entire project, could I be nudging shaky clips into stability as I nudge other previously steady clips into a state of shakiness? Obviously, if I see this occuring, I can revert to a method of nudging only the affected clips one by one.

Again, thanks for the replies/helpful suggestions.

Caruso

Oh, and, SonicDennis, I did try rendering the output using progressive (none) selected in the field order box, but I saw no change for better or worse in the resultant avi.

The shakes in my project resemble very fast start/stop motion, the effect I get if I use the "interval" record setting on one of my cams. That setting allows the camcorder to produce a poor man's version of time lapse video. It's not smooth, however, as the machine records about 8 frames per interval - you then move your subject by an increment, record another interval of 8 frames, and so on. When played back, the subject moves very slowly, but in start/stop fashion.

In my affected VV30a footage, this jerkiness occurs in footage that is supposed to be moving at normal velocity, and the "start/stops" occur very rapidly.

Hope that adequately describes the type of shake I'm experiencing. Sorry not to have answered that question in my previous post.

I do know that my footage was originally captured/output using all the default DV settings (including lower field first order) (well, actually, I change output a bit by selecting resample and best video quality.

Thanks again.

Caruso (edited after a night's sleep to correct blatant typo's)

Just wanted to get back to everyone who helped to report that doing the select-all and nudge (I zoomed in as far as I could, gave the whole project alt-numpad 6 for six keystrokes, then, skeptically started a render to test the results).

Shakes are absent from the resultant file, gone completely.

I shot this project using two volunteers to man two of the three cameras. I met these volunteers for the first time at the performance, instructed them as best I could on the operation of the two camcorders, quickily reviewed some scene capturing strategies (not having even seen this particular performance before, myself), and, then we were off.

Many of my editing decisions were an effort to eliminate the worst shot available (oft-times, mine was one of the baddies), and, in some cases, I resorted to some of the transitions available in VV (page peel, etc) because they were the most appealing way to eliminate an inappropriate camera pan or some other anamoly without actually dimming the entire scene.

One really long, slow crossfade, intended to blur out a transition where none of us shooters caught it right, looked simply awful on final output. Even though I had resampled, it remained very jerky, leaving the viewer wondering just what had gone wrong there.

The nudging suggested here worked wonders on that crossfade, it's now smooth as butter, just the effect I was looking for. Now, that little section that we three would-be videographers all made a mess of looks like a deliberate and very effective creative effort.

Thanks to everyone for helping me out on this problem. I've been doing this computer stuff for a really long time now, the audio/video aspect since Pinnacle's VideoDirecto 200 days. Along the way, I've been fortunate to bump into a lot of BBS types willing to help me learn, but, I can' recall anyother piece of equipment or software where participants on a BBS forum have been so consistently helpful as folks (including SF staff) on this one have been. My current problem is but one example, many other problems are solved by simply reading someone else's description of same and the ensuing posts leading to a solution.

VV is a great piece of software which is truly enhanced by the support one get's from this board.

Sorry to get carried away, but, I'm truly ecstatic for having been able to get this problem solved without having had to trash my work.

Caruso

Thanks for hanging in there. I just heard that 3.0b is going to re-address this issue, just in case anyone else ever sees it. In the meantime, the "nudge all" trick fixes it up (and confirms for me that it is the issue I thought it was).
///d@
P.S. My field-order / progressive guesses were wrong, it was the project/event/media frame alignment issue that I first thought it was.

SonicD:
Your 50% success at guessing is fine with me. Thanks again.
Caruso

I notice the jerky video routinely. Your nudge fix seems to take care of it.

SonicDennis,
Thanks for offering a simple work-around solution so quickly, and for advising us that VV3.0b should fix the problem. (I reported a similar issue this week on the COW forum, which occurred on a few of the clips in a project where the cursor appears between the ruler marks.)

The Sonic Foundry team is the greatest!