Thanks Jason.

I used the pulldown in Dodcap and it appears to work well. What I was wondering is where to best perform the pulldown...in Dodcap or Vegas? Which provides the best quality? Is there anything else I should do when importing the "raw" avi into Vegas?

I'm still getting used to all the options with Vegas.

Hopefully John Meyer joins the discussion as it sounds like we all have similar interests and it sounds like John has a wealth of experience in this type of transfer and editing work.

Regards,
John Romein

Wow. My name in lights (well, the Subject line anyway). I'm impressed.

Congrats on the Workprinter. It is an awesome device, and Roger Evans (its creator) is a good guy to deal with.

Capture

I use Scenalyzer for capture, but of course Dodcap was created specifically for Workprinter so by all means stick with that. I cannot comment on Dodcap's pulldown method, so I cannot tell you how it compares to what you get in Vegas.

Pulldown

Pulldown, of course, is the replication of film frames across multiple video fields in order to make film shot at 15, 18, or 24 frames per second play at the correct speed when played at NTSC video's 29.97 frames per second. Silent Super 8 is usually shot at 18 frames per second, although this can vary with some makes and models of camera. If you elect to have pulldown done by Dodcap, then you don't have to do a darn thing in Vegas (I'm afraid I disagree with jsteehl on this one). You simply start a new, standard 29.97 fps project and import the video (that Dodcap has pulled down), and go from there. The project frame rate is the rate you want to playback, and I assume you want to playback on an NTSC video screen (i.e., your TV set).

Vegas Pulldown

If you elect to have Vegas do the pulldown, things are a little more complicated. First, you import the captured video (again, you use a standard 29.97 fps project rate -- no change from Vegas defaults). Next, you right-click on the video, select "Properties," and then change the "Playback Rate" to 0.600. This is 18/30. After doing this, you select OK and then drag the right edge of the event to the right until you see a little white flag/diamond at the top edge of the event, indicating you have reached the end of the event. You have to do this because when you changed the playback rate to 0.6, the event will take 1.66 times longer to play.

Now, you can go ahead and edit. When you split the main event, each resulting event will retain the 0.6 playback rate. You can then render, create a test tape, and then play it back on your TV.

You will find that if you compare the pulldown done by Dodcap to the slow-motion "pulldown" done by Vegas (i.e., what I just described above), that the Vegas looks much smoother, but that it also loses some sharpness. This is covered in this post:

18 fps to 29.97 fuzzy pulldown

If you want Vegas to do the pulldown, but don't want to suffer the fuzziness, you need to click on "Disable Resample" in the video event properties at the same time when you change the Playback Rate to 0.6. In the thread referenced above, Chienworks correctly identified the reason for the fuzziness (and also for the smoothness):

The problem is that Vegas doesn't really interpolate frames so much as crossfade them. Whenever you combine two adjacent frames this way the result will most likely be fuzzy or look like a double image.

Color Correction

It is almost impossible to get correct color when using a video camera to capture film. There are many posts on the Super 8mm forum about this, and no agreement on the best way to handle the problem. (Here's a link to that site: Super 8mm Forums

What I do is as follows:

1. I follow Roger Evans' instructions for setting up the distance between the tripod and the Workprinter (I'll post this in a separate message below).

2. I turn off my camcorder's image stabilization (results in a sharper picture).

3. I turn off my camcorder's tally light (it will create a reflection in the aerial lens and mar the capture).

4. I use the "Spotlight" mode on my Sony TRV-11. This is designed to keep small bright objects (like a dancer in a follow spot on stage) from totally washing out. This is very important, because the camcorder will expose for the average of the whole scene and, given film's far larger exposure latitude, the highlights will get totally blown out. If you don't have a spotlight mode, you can switch to manual exposure and ride that up and down manually. Underexpose rather than overexpose. If you have a fancy camera that has zebra patterns, use them to avoid losing the highlights.

This exposure hint is really important.

5. Turn off auto-shutter or anything else that might speed up the shutter. You are taking a picture of a perfectly still image, and you want depth of field, not a fast shutter.

6. Turn on autofocus while setting up the tripod (you can move the focus on the Workprinter back and forth, and the autofocus will keep things in focus -- very useful to quickly get the optimal focus point). Once set up, make sure to switch back to manual focus.

7. Finally, Color Correction. Most of the time, I get best results just setting the camcorder's White Balance to auto and taking what I get. Some people do a manual white balance with no film in the projector (just the projector bulb). Others do a manual white balance with the white leader. I never got very good results with either of these approaches. Sometimes I get better results just setting white balance to Indoor. This will all depend on your camera.

No matter what you do, you will almost certainly have to do color correction using Vegas' color corrector.

So, after this long winded post, here's my workflow:

1. Capture using Scenalyzer (which doesn't offer pulldown).
2. Take the raw 18 fps into Vegas, using the standard 29.97 fps project settings.
3. Here's one I forgot to mention. I right-click on the event, select Properties, and then select the "Media" tab. I then change the "Field Order" from "Lower Field First" to "None (progressive scan)." The reason for this is that since the capture is made from a non-moving image, there is no temporal displacement (nothing moves over time) between the upper and lower field, which is the definition of progressive. Vegas can perform its magic more exactly if it knows this.
4. I do not do the pulldown at this point, but instead I edit any bad spots (trim out all the garbage), and also do color correction. You must do color correction on an external monitor using Vegas' ability to pass-through your DV camcorder to an NTSC monitor. Color correction on a computer moniotr -- even one that has been calibrated -- will give you unsatisfactory results. I then render the results to a new AVI file, and tell the renderer to create a Progressive Scan file (which you do by clicking on "Custom" then the "Video" tab and then changing "Field Order"). I realize this extra render results in slight degradation and consumes a few extra minutes waiting for the render, but it ensures that I remember to color correct everything, and it frees my mind to do real editing in the final step.

5. I import the color corrected and de-glitched AVI file back into Vegas. I then perform the pulldown as I described about nineteen paragraph ago (this is a long post -- sorry). I then edit. When I render, I use the standard NTSC DV template (which does lower field first, not progressive -- because the film has now been "pulleddown" and is real video). Whopee!

Hope this helps. I'll post Roger's method for setting up the Workprinter in another message directly below this one.

The following is copied from a post made by Roger Evans (the creator of Workprinter) describing the detailed steps for aligning the camcorder to the Workprinter. Perhaps he now includes this information with his newer models. When I purchased mine several years ago, this was not included.

Therefore, here is the best procedure for setting up the focus on the WorkPrinter:

Thank you very much John. The detailed information you gave about your process and your steps will save me and others a lot of experimenting.

BTW I bookmarked your site. Great videos and provided me some great ideas for my projects.

I got my WorkPrinter-XP only a couple of months ago and Roger has been very helpful...he does provide the instructions like your posting, but even more detailed.

I am looking for a projector to do this sort of thing -
I guess the workprinter is supposed to be pretty good.
Does anyone know it if can play back the sound portion of the film?
I do have a Goko sound reader for the super 8 / 8mm sound that can
be mounted, but I would like to know if it has this built in.
What do I do about printing back to film / blowing up to 16mm
with optical sound? Are there any companies that will make movie
prints based on Vegas Video Files?

WOW! is right. I love it. My Workprinter is on its way and it is awesome to get some great information from someone who has already been there AND uses Vegas.

I was intending on using DobCap but I will give Vegas a try especially with the new information regarding sampling.

Funny thing is I also have a Sony TRV-11 but talking to Rodger, he really suggests having a 12x zoom (the TRV-11 is only 10x). Do you push into digital zoom or does 10x do the trick for you?

Hope you don't mind me picking your brain...

Why do you use Scenalyzer and not VidCap for captures? I actually own Scenalyzer but was just curious.

Although I own a Sony TRV-11, I recently picked up a Sony TRV900 3CCD camera on ebay for $300! It was broken and does not record to tape but everything else works so it basically is my workprinter camera. Questions: It has a progressive mode. Do you think that would provide a better image?

About your setup. Rodger suggested that Raid is important to be able to process the mouse click captures. Did you find that necessary? What type of machine (CPU and memory) are you using?

Do you have a specific prep-film workflow or do you just clean the flim and shoot? Regarding cleaning what do you recommend (and where do you get it)?

I know that the WP does not handle sound. Do you have that need or know of a solution?

Oh, one last question. Can you suggest a S/R 8mm editor or something to look for or avoid. I going to have to get one off ebay and there are many brands types etc...

Thanks again John, the information you have provided on this and other subjects (scanning!) is invaluable!

WOW! is right. I love it. My Workprinter is on its way and it is awesome to get some great information from someone who has already been there AND uses Vegas.

I was intending on using DobCap but I will give Vegas a try especially with the new information regarding sampling.

Funny thing is I also have a Sony TRV-11 but talking to Rodger, he really suggests having a 12x zoom (the TRV-11 is only 10x). Do you push into digital zoom or does 10x do the trick for you?

Hope you don't mind me picking your brain...

Why do you use Scenalyzer and not VidCap for captures? I actually own Scenalyzer but was just curious.

Although I own a Sony TRV-11, I recently picked up a Sony TRV900 3CCD camera on ebay for $300! It was broken and does not record to tape but everything else works so it basically is my workprinter camera. Questions: It has a progressive mode. Do you think that would provide a better image?

About your setup. Rodger suggested that Raid is important to be able to process the mouse click captures. Did you find that necessary? What type of machine (CPU and memory) are you using?

Do you have a specific prep-film workflow or do you just clean the flim and shoot? Regarding cleaning what do you recommend (and where do you get it)?

I know that the WP does not handle sound. Do you have that need or know of a solution?

Oh, one last question. Can you suggest a S/R 8mm editor or something to look for or avoid. I going to have to get one off ebay and there are many brands types etc...

Thanks again John, the information you have provided on this and other subjects (scanning!) is invaluable!

does 10x do the trick for you?

10x works, but just barely, for Super 8. For regular 8mm, it is just a little short of what is needed (8mm is smaller, so you have to zoom in further), so I end up having to crop slightly in Vegas (which means I am losing resolution). However, since you have a TRV900, and it has the requisite zoom,you can use that (you definitely should use that to get the advantages of the 3-chip sensor).

Why do you use Scenalyzer and not VidCap for captures?

I think you mean Dodcap. I use Senalyzer because, for the same price as Dodcap, you get a very complete, general purpose capture utility that does dozens of things that neither Vegas nor Dodcap do. You need to get the absolute latest version, because Andi (the author) didn't add the stop motion capture until recently (partly in response to my telling him that there were lots of Workprinter users that would buy the product if he provided stop motion).

I recently picked up a Sony TRV900 3CCD camera ... it has a progressive mode. Do you think that would provide a better image?

Progessive mode will not help anything at all because you are taking a picture of a still image (the film is absolutely still at the moment each frame is captured by the stop motion feature of DodCap, Premiere, or Scenalyzer). Progressive mode doesn't provide a sharper image; it simply takes the entire frame all at once, rather than interleaving. This can sometimes be useful when taking pictures of moving objects, but has no advantage for things that don't move at all.

However, the 3CCD makes a BIG difference, as does the ability to use the zebra patterns to see and correct overexposure, which is the biggest problem you face in getting good captures. By all means definitely use the TRV900.

Rodger suggested that Raid is important to be able to process the mouse click captures.

Roger is a great guy and wonderful with the mechanical things, but I believe he has mis-stated several things in regards to what is needed on the computer. First of all, there is very little stress on the hard disk and you definitely do not need a disk array (RAID). Think about it, your computer captures 30 frames per second from your DV camcorder with no problems (I can even do background tasks on my computer while capturing). The Workprinter only captures at 6 frames per second. A lot of the problems that Roger and his early customers experienced, and which I believe led him to this wrong conclusion, has to do with the problems of synchronization between the camcorder and the computer. Because the projector and video camera are not synchronized in any way, there is no way to ever go faster than 15 frames per second. This is because after the film comes to rest, and the Workprinter sends its mouse click, the camera must then scan an entire frame, from the beginning of the frame. If it just happen to have begun scanning its next frame, the capture software must wait for it to scan the next frame after that. Thus, it could take almost two 1/30 second cycles to get one frame. Add to that the overhead of the Workprinter getting the film from one frame to the next, and you can see why it can't go much more than six frames per second. I think that a lot of Roger's users complained when they tried to push beyond six frames a second and, not understanding the basic limitations described above, assumed that their computer setup wasn't suffiecient. I think they also had problems because they were using the stop motion capture in Premiere, and Premiere is a slow dog (woof woof).

I did all my initial captures on my 750 MHz Compaq Presario laptop running Windows ME, using an el-cheapo 1394 PC Card and a 30-day trial of Premiere (this was two years ago). This was a second-hand old laptop, with a terribly slow (4500 rpm) hard disk, and it had no problems whatsoever.

You don't need a rocket ship to use with Workprinter.

Do you have a specific prep-film workflow or do you just clean the flim and shoot? Regarding cleaning what do you recommend (and where do you get it)?

You definitely need to clean. I tried skipping this step, even though everyone recommended it, and I ended up going back and re-capturing after cleaning. You should go to the Super8 forum that I recommended in an earlier post and see what they recommend. I've been using Pec-12, but it is probably too agressive for general cleaning (it is for removing mold from film). I simply fast forward the film and hold a Pec pad moistened with cleaning solution over the film. I then rewind the film (which lets the last of the Pec evaporate). You can get these supplies at any photo store that sells darkroom supplies.

There is a Virtualdub plugin (it doesn't work in Vegas with Plugin Pac unfortunately) that is designed to work with Workprinter captured film (prior to pulldown) for removing dust. According to posters, it works well. No substitute for cleaning, but when cleaning alone isn't sufficient, or if you're really trying for great results, it might be worth using. It is called SpotRemover. Get it here:

Spot Remover

I know that the WP does not handle sound. Do you have that need or know of a solution?

I've seen some posts on this, and I've thought about this. I haven't had to do this, but if faced with the issue, what I'd do is capture the film using the workprinter. I'd then rewind the film and run it through a regular projector and capture the sound using SoundForge (or any sound program). I'd then put the video on the Vegas timeline, and do the pulldown in Vegas as discussed previously. I'd then put the sound on the timeline below. I'd sync up at the beginning of the video using any of the techniques discussed in various posts in this forum (having to do with re-syncing video that has lost sync). This usually involved syncing on someone saying a word starting with "p," or syncing on impulse noise, like something dropping to the floor, etc. I'd then go to the end of the film, and sync then end of the sound. Unlike the beginning, where I would sync by simply moving the audio event relative to the video event, I would sync the sound at the end by using Ctrl-Drag edge to speed or slow the sound event to fit. This will ensure that the sound syncs at all points in between.

This, of course, is theory. I haven't actually done it.

Can you suggest a S/R 8mm editor or something to look for or avoid?

Are you talking about an editor to splice the film? I've only had a few film breaks to deal with, and I was able to use the old editor from my dad's Super 8. The glue hadn't been opened since 1971, but it was still good and the splices held. Just make sure you get a splicer that uses glue. The tape splices never held, and they look terrible on screen.

John, can I send you some cash, a kidney, a pizza... something. Well maybe my thanks! Not kidding you have saved me probably days in the basement. I'm the family archivest (as it sounds like you are) and I have a ton of 8mm to do.

"I use Senalyzer because, for the same price as Dodcap, you get a very complete, general purpose capture utility that does dozens of things that neither Vegas nor Dodcap do."

I'll have to get the latest install. I also use it and the fact that it can index a miniDV tape in 5 minutes alone makes it worth the price.

" as does the ability to use the zebra patterns to see and correct overexposure, which is the biggest problem you face in getting good captures."

I will definetly be using the TRV900. But had not considered the zebra patterns (which I just check it does have). Is that the same thing as the Color bars? Would I use it to adjust a monitor connected to the cam or the cam itself? Don't know if there are any FAQ's on the net for this?

"You don't need a rocket ship to use with Workprinter."

Good to hear as I did not want to configure a Raid setup to use the WPXP. Besides time you've saved me some $$$ here :)

Thanks for the Spot Remover tip, I'm also looking at Steady Hand as some of the film is ridiculously shaky.

" I'd then rewind the film and run it through a regular projector and capture the sound using SoundForge (or any sound program)"

Sounds like it should work. Our projector does not have sound capabilities (obviously someone else in the family did). So I might look for on on ebay that does sound. I wounder if the sound projector would have an audio jack or just go off the speaker?

I have enough film so I'm going to pick up a reel to reel view/editor on Ebay. It would also serve as a prep/clean machine.

Thanks again John. Hope I can help you in the future (BTW, I was kidding about the kidney :).

Hi John,
I have my own photo restoration business and recently I've added vhs and digital media transfers to dvd's. Now I've been hit hard by people wanting 8mm reels transferred to dvd. But I don't have the know-how or the tools needed. I've been doing research and found out about the Video WorkPrinter-XP. You mentioned it in earlier posts. I guess my question to you is, if I buy this, what software(or anything else) would you reccommed? Any help you can offer will be much appreciated.
Thanks in advance.
Dave

Hi Dave
John mentioned the software earlier in this thread. The maker of the Workprinter, Roger Evans (nice guy), Recommends using software called DodCap. It will work with the Workprinter very nicely. I use it. It will capture the frames for you and then if you want it to, it will apply the proper pull-down for playing on your TV at the proper speed. I believe John uses capture software called "Scenalyzer Live". He has been in contact with the author of that software and has had some modifications done for his purposes. They both work fine. I believe that John uses either avisynth or Vegas for pulldown. You will probably need to learn to use Avisynth for cleaning the transfers. You could also use Virtualdub. There are various filters for cleaning up video. I use one called RemoveDirt in VirtualDub and it works very well. John will recommened one called DeSpot. They both work in cleaning up spots and dirt on video. These two applications are free by the way. There have been a number of threads with John involved on this forum. Do a search for "Workprinter" or "Johnmeyer" to find them all. Finally, I have been in contact with John in the recent past and have found him to be extremely helpful, knowledgeable and very forthcoming with the help and information for any questions that I have asked of him. He seems to be a very nice and helpful fellow!
Mark

(oops -- replied to this question before seeing that it was over a year old. Oh, well -- the answer remains the same...)

The WorkPrinter does not have sound capability. It's basically an old sllent dual-8mm projector that has had the shutter, film gate and motor modified so that it runs at approximately 1 frame/second.

I applaud Roger Evans' novel approach to telecine -- it does a wonderful job.