Joining AVCHD/mts files and usability in Vegas?

mx1497 wrote on 2/26/2010, 5:11 PM

Hello,

I have in the past used an AVCHD camcorder to video a long event (over an hour) and the mts files get split up.

These separate files can successfully be imported and placed side-by-side on the time line in Vegas Pro 8c, but at the point where a new file starts there is a hiccup in the continuity of the audio and video. Trying to remedy this, I have successfully joined together mts files from long events using both Pixela and tsMuxer software.

Without exception, the large mts file consisting of joined together mts files will either not import into Vegas or crash soon afterward, usually with "an unknown error has occurred" message.

Does anyone know if this is just a limitation with these AVCHD camcorders or is there a known fix? Is it possible to seamlessly join together mts files, import them into Vegas and then add fx, including Magic Bullet, and successfully render a file in a reasonable amount of time?
I had better luck with much shorter videos (under 5 minutes) in adding fx, Magic Bullet and rendering.

I am presently using HDV from a miniDv camcorder without any issue, but miss the convenience of flash memory. I have looked on the internet, but am wondering if someone can definitively say yes, (or no), this is/isn't possible.

Thanks for any input.
________________________
AMD quad core
3 gigs RAM
Sony Vegas Pro 8c

Comments

MHH wrote on 2/26/2010, 6:04 PM

Hi

I use the following tool to merge my files before editing:

http://www.smlabs.net/tsmuxer_en.html

BudWzr wrote on 2/26/2010, 6:23 PM

If there's a "blip", why do you think it's Vegas? Are you "snapping"? If not, then that's the problem, you're too far out to make a frame-level butt.

Rob Franks wrote on 2/26/2010, 7:02 PM

"you're too far out to make a frame-level butt."

Untrue.

These files can (and are regularly) joined at frame level accuracy.

When these cams chop the files (to accommodate a fat32 disk format) they do so without considering the gop structure. The gop gets chopped (and therefore NOT finalized) so when you bring them into an editor in their raw form the editor can not read the incomplete gop and a few frames are lost as a result.

These chopped files MUST be rejoined BEFORE importing to an editor in order to re-establish the original gop so the the missing frames can be read.

Vegas 9 DEVICE EXPLORER has the ability to rejoin these chopped files automatically upon import. Vegas 8 however does not so the files must be joined externally before importing.

These files can be joined in the command window (the command prompt) using the simple JOIN command (or through the cam's supplied software)

mx1497 wrote on 2/26/2010, 7:04 PM

BudWzr: ["If there's a "blip", why do you think it's Vegas? Are you "snapping"?"]

I don't know if technically the problem originates from Vegas, but it is the program I am importing the files into.

BudWzr: ["If not, then that's the problem, you're too far out to make a frame-level butt."]

With or without snapping enabled, the hiccup still occurs.

Thanks for the replies,
Just wandering if anyone has tried something that consistently works or knows if the process of joining mts files and using them in Vegas is a hit or miss thing?

mx1497 wrote on 2/26/2010, 7:08 PM

Rob Franks: ["These files can be joined in the command window (the command prompt) using the simple JOIN command (or through the cam's supplied software)"]

I have no problem in joining the mts files together. The issue is trying to bring that one big, joined file into Vegas without having it crash.

musicvid10 wrote on 2/26/2010, 7:19 PM

Try the VideoReDo h.264 Beta. They have done quite well with frame-accurate joining of MPEG-2 (VOB) files, so I would like to hear if the new beta works for you.

UlfLaursen wrote on 2/26/2010, 9:27 PM

There is a free mergertool here as well.

http://vontraining.net/download/

/Ulf

BudWzr wrote on 2/26/2010, 9:54 PM

I don't know how those blips always land on the "keeper" part. Aren't you editing the footage?

Anyway, once you get your files concatenated, you might have to demux to another format.

Hmmm...this is a toughie because normally filming is not continuous like that because it's a gamble, if something goes wrong you might lose the whole thing.

DavidMcKnight wrote on 2/26/2010, 11:32 PM

It's a simple thing, it's a function of the camera and a 4GB limitation of the way it formats the card. Use the tools mentioned. The information is on the card but the files have to be joined. You can also use a simple DOS command if you're comfortable with that:

copy 00001.mts /b + 00002.mts /b + 00003.mts /b OutputFilename.mts

A. Grandt wrote on 2/27/2010, 1:32 AM

David, that is my impression as well, the problem is that the Camcorder does not split the recording on a frame boundary, it just split the file. Meaning you can have half the data of a frame at the end of one file, and the next file starting with other half of that frame's data, no header.

Appending files with something like the DOS copy command is the way to go. But do remember the /b's that David showed, that tells Copy that the input is binary.

BudWzr wrote on 2/27/2010, 6:49 AM

He's saying that the resulting file is crashing.

I'm thinking that if you use avidemux on an H.264 file it has a "safe" mode that strips the GOP. Maybe that can free up the lost frames. (use on a backup copy).

mx1497 wrote on 2/27/2010, 9:46 AM

yeh, it's about the crashing during/or shortly after import..

The fact that this information is not readily available and no one is posting a simple solution through experience, leads me to believe that there may not be a definite fix.

OTOH, I wonder if the fact that I am using an AMD quad core @ 2.2ghz might be a contributing factor. I know 2.2ghz AMD is on the low side of quad cores.
If I upgraded the processor, maybe it won't crash (?)

DavidMcKnight wrote on 2/27/2010, 9:49 AM

Please read my post again. You want experience? I just used this technique on 210 GB worth of MTS files from a Panasonic HMC-150 into Vegas Pro 9c.

mx1497 wrote on 2/27/2010, 10:12 AM

thanks, David. when I originally saw your post, I thought it was just another suggestion for joining the files - which I can already do.

Being that you're saying that you have had success with this, I am going to try the DOS commands as you suggested.

Other than that, maybe the fact that you have Vegas 9 (vs. 8 for me) might have something to do with it?

BudWzr wrote on 2/27/2010, 10:40 AM

Yeah, everyone's comments are focused on the joining, but the crashing of the resulting big file is where you need more guidance.

What I can tell you is that I DO frequently work with large 5gig+ 1080i H.264 recordings in .ts files, and I remux them (with size, crop, and color correction filters) to other codecs depending on what I want to do.

And I KNOW that avidemux has a mode that pops up when you load an H.264, that ignores the embedded i-frames and such and treats the video as raw input basically, like WYSIWYG.

And I "think" that might free up those lost frames due to the GOP structure corruption, because they are physically there, but the index condition is not allowing Vegas to see them.

Then you can render out something actually usable on the timeline, Vegas doesn't do well with realtime H.264 editing, even in 9.0c.

I'm not criticizing any other post here, and I admit that my first post didn't apply to your situation.

John_Cline wrote on 2/27/2010, 10:49 AM

First of all, 5GB is not a particularly large video file. Secondly, if you size, crop and color correct a file, you are not "remuxing" you are rendering and transcoding. Thirdly, H.264 has I-frames and there is no way to "ignore" them. The entire file, I-frames and all, needs to be decoded to be usable. You can convert it to an intra-frame codec like Cineform, but then it would no longer be H.264. Lastly, you rarely know what you're talking about so why do you continue to post?

BudWzr wrote on 2/27/2010, 11:09 AM

In my case, I AM transcoding, but that's optional. Why not kill 2-3 birds at the same time? Of course you can simply remux with no filters. Maybe the OP wanted to do the same, if not that's fine.

Who cares if it's not H.264 anymore?

Lastly, you rarely understand what I'm talking about, just like so many posters here fail to get the jist of the OP's situation.

mx1497 wrote on 2/28/2010, 4:40 PM

ok... I did something that worked. (Although it's not perfect).

1. I used TsmuxeR to join the mts files (Added first file then "joined" the remaining in order) into an (8gig+) mts file. The file was seamless; no hiccups or audio glitches at the original file points. (About 12 minutes for every 1.90gb file/piece form original footage to stitch to joined file.)
2. I downloaded the trial for Cineform NeoScene and converted the joined file into a (45gig+) avi file. (About an hour more.)
3. The avi file imported easily into Vegas. I was able to add four fx, including Magic Bullet without an issue.

It is @5% after 5 hours of rendering.

This (to be 70 minute in final) video first took about 55 minutes for TSMuxeR, then an hour for Cineform and, at the rate it's rendering now, another 4 days to get the finished file. (Hopefully sooner.)

If I were to do this on a regular basis, I would have to buy NeoScene, have ample storage and upgrade my processor. I think this is why it's taking so long, the processor is not powerful enough. (?)

(AMD quad core 2.2.ghz/3gigs RAM/Vista 32)

A. Grandt wrote on 3/1/2010, 4:34 AM

Rule number 1 when handling AVCHD, or HD in general: It takes time, lots of it.

But 4 days to render 70 minutes? That sounds a bit steep to me.

I can say that I have a Quad core AMD Phenom @2.6GHz and how fast (read: slow) it renders HD, but without knowing which FX you added the comparison is meaningless.

I may be wrong, but in my limited experience, is may pay to turn the original into a mxf file, and render to one as well.
Also having the Page file, Temp, source and destination directories on different hard drives is a major boost in performance.

mx1497 wrote on 3/1/2010, 9:00 AM

A. Grandt..

The project has bright/contrast, HSL adjust, sharp and Magic Bullet Looks. I believe that MBL is the culprit. I rendered a 45-minute HDV video with similar fx, including MBL and it took 48 hours to render a hi-def output file. Apparently AVCHD takes even longer.
I should probably skip MBL altogether and try my own look with the coloring fx.

I'll try the mxf file and I do have do Vegas setup to work on different drives, but I could probably do a little better on a few of the settings and turn off more background activity in Vista.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
UPDATE: The file was @ 27% for almost 27 hours of rendering, so I canceled it out.
I removed Magic Bullet Looks, tweaked the other fx, like contrast and brightness, and it's rendering much faster now.
The render with MBL after 5 hours was only @ 5%. This new render is now @ 5% after only 50 minutes.

So, it looks like this is workable with the mts files from an AVCHD cam (as long as Magic Bullet is not involved).
TsmuxeR to join the files + a lossless codec.
I used the trial of Cineform's NeoScene in my tests, but would like to look into the possibility of freeware lossless intermediate codec before spending money.