My machine unexpectedly shut itself down early this morning. I wonder if that could have been due to a forced update?

HI Robert,
Mine did that too, without my consent. It was in the middle of both rendering and updating last night, but microsoft decided to halt that and do what it would with my machine. Now I'm starting all over this morning.

I honestly thought that I had shut of automatic updates, but the internet connection was still on, so...I don't know.

But it irks me that updates will automatically shut down the computer unless you are there to stop it. This should NEVER happen. EVER. It should always wait for the USER to restart.

Buggers.

kairosmatt

i just have the updates warn me when they're there. download, but not installed yet.

duh! Thanks Happy Friar, will do that.

kairosmatt

My computer will be six years old next month. I connect to the Internet and surf every site I want. I download and install software.

Oh, and I have not done a single update in six years (I'm running XP Pro, SP1). I don't use a firewall. I don't have any anti-virus software.

I DO use a HOSTS file. I DO have my security settings set appropriately. And I DO have a router between all my computers and the Internet so I get the security that comes with NAT.

I have seen viruses and have removed them from client computers, so I know they exist. However, the threat is WAY overblown. Turn off ALL automatic updates. If you're computer ain't broke, don't let some automated robot "fix" it for you!!!

I know a lot of people think this is nuts but I run my XP computers with no virus/spyware/e-mail blocking software. Just good old IE7 and all the latest updates. Have not had a problem in over 4 years and when I did have a problem I was running a lot of that junk.

I know, I'm just paranoid. I like what JohnMeyer is saying, but I would need to research more to set up what he has, and I'm probably not as smart as he is!

Usually I don't have problems with automatic updates...but I guess all it takes is one time. Once bit.............

kairosmatt

John, it could be that the router is providing enough protection from all the zombies out there.

Still, it might be an interesting experiment to download the freeware ZoneAlarm and temporarily install it. Once installed it will begin asking permissions for such-and-such program to access the Internet. If it's a program that you obviously want to access the Internet, just click okay, and you'll never see that particular request again.

I'd be curious to see if there are critters living on your system that are suddenly flushed out into the open, such as ZoneAlarm stating, "Dsubx32.exe is requesting permission to access the Internet Yes? No?." If, after a couple of days, nothing suspicious seems to be living on your system, you could just uninstall ZoneAlarm and go bare again. But I've heard stories about some very sneaky programs that use unprotected PCs as a base for further propagation.

The majority of viruses come through e-mail, so i'm guessing john doesn't get e-mail on that computer....

having gotten a couple of viruses, I can assure you that they can reek havoc!....

I've got automatic updates turned off and none of my computers rebooted this morning. No one running a production computer should have automatic updates turned on. Only you can determine when it is the right time to backup and apply an update and that usually should be between projects! (and if you don't do a full system backup before you apply any updates you are playing with fire)

~jr

"The majority of viruses come through e-mail, so i'm guessing john doesn't get e-mail on that computer...."

Probably not. Many these days come from drive-by installs when visiting websites. A lot of ISPs now filter viruses out of email before putting it in your inbox. Even if the virus is in your email, you still have to execute it yourself to get it to run. When's the last time you got an email from the 3rd National Bank of Zambia with an attached program to reset your security preferences *AND* you clicked on the attachment?

Still, it might be an interesting experiment to download the freeware ZoneAlarm and temporarily install it.I have about a dozen computers here, running everything from Win98 to WinXP. No Vista (now, or ever). Out of all these computers, one came with Trend Micro anti-virus. Until recently, I paid them their annual fee, just so I could do exactly what you suggest. In three years of using it, the only computer that ever showed ANY problem was the one on which the anti-virus software was installed. In fact, it actually got a virus!! In all the years since viruses became a problem (and that is more than a decade) this is still the only virus I've had on a computer which I maintained. I am pretty sure it was caused by using the default states shipped by Dell (it is an Inspiron 6000 laptop with XP Media Edition).

Since having that problem, I made the same changes to this computer as I have to my others: a HOST file which blocks access to all known "bad" sites (and also turns off ads served by doubleclick and other similar services);

setting the "Restricted Sites" settings to allow absolutely NOTHING, and then bonding Outlook Express to that security zone (this is probably the most important thing you can do to protect yourself against email viruses);

change Office apps so they prompt you when opening documents if those documents contain macros;

using a NAT router to connect to the Internet (anyone who connects their computer directly to their DSL or Cable "modem" is a fool and is going to have problems -- don't do it).
And, I have partitioned my main drive on ALL my computers into C: and D:. The C: drive is about 8 MBytes, and the D: drive is everything else. Only Windows and Programs go on the C: drive, and my Temp and all other folders are moved to the D: drive. With this arrangement, I can do an image backup of all the things that a virus might harm. And, I can do that backup in under ten minutes. This means that I do it frequently. If something happens, I can do a complete restore in under twenty minutes. I've had to do this at least three times due to gross cockpit error (I do some really stupid things when I get tired), and as long as the hardware is still working, I can be back up in less time than it takes to go out and get a latte.

By contrast, I look at the horrendous, horrible, almost criminal waste of time imposed by most anti-virus software. The Symantec/Norton anti-virus program should definitely be the object of a class-action suit. It can bring even the most modern computer to its knees. My daughter, who is a senior in college, just called a few days ago and said her laptop (which is the most amazingly great laptop I've ever purchased) would sometimes show files in Windows Explorer, and other times they would disappear. To make a long story short, I logged onto her computer using Netmeeting and found out that Norton/Symantec was running. Every time she moves to a new dorm, the univerisity requires that her computer be scanned to make sure it is running an anti-virus program. So, we have to install this thing temporarily, and then as soon as her computer is registered at the new location, we take it off. Well, the last time she moved we forgot to take it off. Norton/Symantec was so incredibly slow, that it was taking over 30 seconds (half a minute!!!) to simply read the files in one folder (it only had about 300 files). Thus, to her, it appeared that they had disappeared. I removed Norton/Symantec anti-virus, re-booted, and then ran the Norton Removal Tool to make sure I killed all remaining vestiges of this worse-than-a-virus tool.

Two hours later, she called back and said, "Dad, everything is running so FAST." It is like having a new computer.

It has been my observation that Norton/Symantec anti-virus actually gets slower over time, and while not usually a conspiracy theory guy, I sometimes wonder if this isn't some sort of ploy to get people to buy a new computer every few years. It seems that everyone I talk to says, "My old computer started running really slow, so I went out and bought a new one. Boy, the new one sure runs fast."

I sometimes run an old 450MHz P3 computer and for everything except rendering, it runs almost as fast as even my fastest computer. I even edit video on it (using Pinnacle Studio, although I haven't done that for a year or so).

I have AV running & my computer runs as fast as when I first installed XP.

it's all how you set things up.

There are other antivirus programs besides Norton (which is criminally bad today)...

Personally I like Trend Micro Internet Security, $19.95-$29.95 for a 3-user license for a shrinkwrapped factory original package on eBay, but there are other good ones.

It is certainly possible to run naked (w/o AV), but that requires more knowledge and skill than most people possess.

Re the Microsoft updates, IT departments nationwide have been apoplectic over MS updating (and rebooting) also machines that were set to not auto-update.

"a HOST file which blocks access to all known "bad" sites (and also turns off ads served by doubleclick and other similar services); "

The problem is you have no way of knowing IF a site is clean. It might have been clean for years and then something gets injected into it. We run Kapersky on all PCs and I've had it raise alarms browsing a site that should have been absolutely clean. Whatever it was it appeared to be attached to a mouse over action.

Bob.

The problem is you have no way of knowing IF a site is clean.Well, true enough, but if 1% of all sites are bad, and if the HOSTS file gets 85% of those, then I'd have to work REALLY hard to find the small fraction of 1% of sites that are bad which are not in the HOSTS file. Since most of these are WAREZ and other shady places, the odds of going there and getting infected, once I've done all these are things, rapidly approaches 0.00%.

Also, your argument actually also applies to antivirus programs themselves, all (well, most) of which rely on pattern recognition. When a new virus is invented, these programs will not detect it until that virus has infected a lot of computers, gets reported, then analyzed, and finally incorporated into the patters. So, by their very nature, anti-virus software is designed to fail at the point where most people would need it: when a new, clever, potentially "deadly" virus gets released.

"Also, your argument actually also applies to antivirus programs themselves,"

Absolutely!
There's some very clever and very nasty code around. These new exploits are tested against every known AV program before they spawn themselves. We're now into the real "viral" area, this is similar to what's done to "hot up" biological viruses and bacteria for germ warfare.

You're also right, the chances of getting hit are slim. Again these code writers are smart, if what they've injected cannot contact their host they do a perfect job of removing themselves so the AV writers have a harder time being alerted to them.

The landscape has changed. In the past people were writing this crud for notoriety or just for a skylark. It's now a commercial operation, there's people who'll sell you access to one of their battalions of spambots.

I suspect this is why M$ are now more proactive. It's not just them either, look at the recent scare over the security of DNS itself. That was a hole that's been known about for a long time. Eventually someone worked out how to exploit it.

One of the reasons I'm now using Kapersky is the guy behind it is pretty good at finding risks before they get exploited. I've also not had any issues running their code and Vegas, unlike Norton's rubbish it does now how to get out of the way.

Bob.

My point is to install ZoneAlarm to see what, if anything, is requesting access to the Internet from inside your PC. Otherwise, I don't think there's any way of knowing if something inside your PC is phoning home or infecting other computers.

I use the freeware AVG8 antivirus and it's terrific. I've done Norton, McAfee, and a few others, but this one does well and you can't beat the price. The default installation sets up a link monitor which slows down your Google surfing quite a bit. Fortunately, enough users complained that they made it optional. Just make sure you select the custom installation, then deselect the link monitor feature.

I use CA anti-virus, it came with my computer, expired (after 2 years I think) and then I paid to continue with it. I have windows XP firewall running and a comcast cable modem. Twice I have tried to update to from SP2 to XP SP3, but it crashes at the end of installation, seems I need to tweak my registry so I gave up. I gather that some of you are not in favor of MS08-067, save to say I should not run it?, thanks, jeff

I don't have any anti-virus software.

That's what I do. And then one day I took my USB key to the copy shop... :( You wouldn't think about that, but unfortunately it's a way for viruses to get onto your computer (autoplay... ugh!). The virus was difficult enough to remove that I gave up and Ghosted the sucker. Some of the new viruses are pretty ridiculous as they have multiple layers of defence.

2- Regarding partitioning: Unfortunately, certainly programs are fairly bloated and will install a significant number of files onto the C:\. Namely, Adobe. Also, there is a lot of stuff in the Windows folder and that stuff will accumulate (Installer crap, windows updates, etc. etc.). I've found that a 8GB C: partition is not enough for my needs.

"but if 1% of all sites are bad, and if the HOSTS file gets 85% of those ..."

You have 0.85% of ALL websites in your hosts file? Just how big is your multi-terabyte RAID that it can hold those hundreds of billions of entries? How many centuries did you spend typing them all in? How long does it take Windows to boot up with a hosts file that gigantic?

Seriously though ... the disadvantage of a hosts file is that it's a lot of manual research and updates. Using AV or other 3rd party software to help you block things out means you get to take advantage of a professional team dedicated to using the best tools for finding things to avoid and updating the list for you.

"That's what I do. And then one day I took my USB key to the copy shop... "

This happened to someone I know as well. And the good news was it was his daughter who took the stick to the copy shop. When she got back home and things went a bit wobbly she tried the same memory stick in all the PCs she could find :)

Bob.