JVC and HD and NLE...

filmy wrote on 6/30/2003, 9:25 PM
In a word..wow. I just had the weirdist phone call from JVC. I had a question about the D-VHS and HD and firewire and NLE and all of that fun stuff and wasn't getting real response on the boards overall so I zipped off an email to the rep last week. Anyhow - the stuff you (don't) want to hear - as I am explaining to the guy about editing he stops me and says this...and I am still trying to figure out what planet this guy is living on...he says that HD is not being used for any sort of production work and only being used for trade shows - as in being used for displays at trade shows. ?!?!?!?!?! With my head sort of realing from hearing that I pressed him on the fact that HD *was* being used and my interest in it was to simply find out if any NLE could interact with the JVC HD decks. At first the issue was evaded saying that one needs a 'true' HD signal coming out of the firewire and you can't get that from "any computer based editing system." ?!?!!?!!?!!? Again my head was spinning...I mean...here I am talking to someone who works for the professional side of JVC (yes JVC makers of the first HD prosumer HD-1 mini-dv camera as well as makers of "The world’s first 3 CMOS HDTV camera") and I am being told, in so many words, that HD doesn't really exist...at least that is how I look at that comment. It was like he was saying to me "Well yeah, HD is out there but you can't do anything with it anyway unless you want to send a signal to a HD display at a trade show." ?!?!!?!!?!!???!!!

As much as I wanted to argue the fact that feature films, news casts and network shows are being shot (and have been shot) on HD and that there are computer based systems that do edit HD I just kept calm and pressed on with my questions. So what I got overall was that he didn't know anything baout VV and HD-not the HD part so much as just the fact he wasn't familur with VV overall. He mentioned there was a PCI interface card for about $1,000 (US) that worked with Premiere to interface with an outboard HD MPEG encoder. He also finally admitted that the JVC D-VHS decks would accept firewire output from a NLE's DV output but only to encode to SD, not HD, and added that JVC in no way supported that because none of their units were really designed for, as he kept saying, "production" work. He let me in on the fact that JVC was working on some items that will be full fledged NLE compatable and be HD software based and it would make me want it now...if only he could let me in on it...but he couldn't. (Um...ok) And again it was stressed that even this would only be suitable for TV spots and short industrials, not features as for that you will still need a hardware based solution. And also their HD30000 D-VHS unit is discontinued now. (Which explains why you can find it for around $450 at a number of places)

So what is my point in telling you all of this? I am not sure - just that I am still not sure I actually had this conversation. Should I just tap my heals together now and repeat "there's no place like home" over and over?

Ack!! ppfht!!



Comments

Nat wrote on 6/30/2003, 11:44 PM
If you want to edit HD on a computer you need to get an uncompressed HD card... with SDI inputs/outputs... pretty expensive stuff. Vegas will read and edit the files but wont capture on print them. Go take a look at www.discreet.com, they have nice NLEs that edit HD.
filmy wrote on 7/1/2003, 2:03 AM
Yeah there are a lot of ways to go out and do HD with a NLE - hardware assisted for the most part when it comes to HD. I almost made mention at one point about the BlueFish line of cards but I bit my tounge. If anyone reading wants a great method of editing HD with VV read the post I made on this thread - http://sonicfoundry.com/forums/ShowMessage.asp?MessageID=189943&Page=0
HPV wrote on 7/1/2003, 11:16 AM
Dr. Dropout (SF dude) posted some info about editing footage from the JVC HiDef cam over on the Creativecow Vegas forum. Firewire will work for input to computer but not output.

Craig H.
filmy wrote on 7/1/2003, 11:34 AM
>>>Firewire will work for input to computer but not output.<<<

I found this is not true. This was confirmed also by JVC. You need to get one of the little free HD/D-VHS tools such as DVSTool 2.1 or you can use GraphEdit with some filters. The only way it does work is with Windows Xp however.
edarring wrote on 7/1/2003, 3:09 PM
Ok, here's the real story on the JVC HD camcorder (BTW, there are two versions: the JY-HD10U for "professionals" and the consumer GR-HD1).

The output of the JVC HD camcorder comes across firewire. If you film in DV mode, then you get DV. If you film in 480p or 720p HD, it comes across in MPEG2 Transport Stream format--this is the same format your satellite uses to receive HD signals, if you have the hardware. I think it uses a 6-frame GOP. The bit rate is 19.7Mbps--less than DV's 25Mbps--but has full 1280x720p resolution. And it looks great.

The D-VHS deck works the same way. DV if in DV mode, MPEG2TS if in any HD mode.

Editing is a challenge. Most editing software including VV don't support MPEG2TS. Even JVC gets banged up in reviews for not solving this problem. They do include a simple brain-dead editor in the box, but you and I certainly wouldn't use it.

The JVC web site points to a company (www.cineform.com) that has some software that works with Premiere that will import the HD content, and, interestingly, allow you to edit HD content in real time.

Now, that's what VV needs for it's HD support.
HPV wrote on 7/1/2003, 7:26 PM
>>>Firewire will work for input to computer but not output.<<<

I found this is not true.
--------------------------------
Go take a look at what Dr. Dropout said.

http://www.creativecow.net/index.php?forumid=24

Re: JVC HD Camcorder - Vegas support? by Dr. Dropout

Craig H.
filmy wrote on 7/1/2003, 9:42 PM
Dr. Dropout is entitled to his workflow and if the method Dr Dpout uses doesn't work for him that is ok. If you read my post I had to prod the JVC guy to admit that the firewire out from a PC/Mac would indeed work with DV out to the JVC D-VHS decks in as well as the HD out. If you read my post on this thread I re-posted a post from someone who uses VV to edit HD material and they gave a really detailed description as to how they do it. Dr. Dropout doesn't mention that same workflow in his post on CC.

Now if the point is that you can't output DV and have it end up on the HD cameras or the HD/D-VHS decks as true HD than that much is true it seems. ALso if you mean that VV can not currently capture or output/PTT any HD material that has been established by SoFo themselves. But as for actual firewire out/in on the D-VHS/HD decks - that is what my very first question was and the majority of people have found ways to do this. And again - it only works on Windows XP currently.
seeker wrote on 7/4/2003, 11:52 PM
Filmy,

There is a current article in Sound & Vision magazine, the July/August 2003 issue, starting on page 63, that is relevant to this. It is titled, "High-Concept Cam, JVC GR-HD1 High-Definition Camcorder" by David Ranada. A few excerpts from the article:

"...But for now, the high-def data feed coming out of the camcorder's i.Link (FireWire) connector will be unrecognizable to whatever video capture software you may already have. (When you play standard-DV recordings on the JVC cam, that output

"So in order to do real moviemaking with the GR-HD1, you're going to have to rely on the tools JVC supplies with it, which includes four software packages for PCs (no Mac versions). HD Capture Utility transfers high-def video from the camcorder to your computer's hard disk. Audio Converter converts among audio file types (MP3, WAV, etc.) for audio-signal compatibility with MPEG Edit Studio Pro LE, a nonlinear, frame-accurate video-editing system that can convert HD files into a format recognized by the last application, ImageMixer DVD, a simple DVD burner."

"HD Capture Utility takes the incoming MPEG-2 data and saves it in files with an .M2T extension, signifying that they are in MPEG-2 "transport-stream" format (the usual computer MPEG-video file is of the "program stream" variety). If the incoming video contains multiple shots -- meaning you started and stopped the cam while shooting -- they'll be automatically split into separate M2T files. This can be a hassle if you do any "in-camera" editing, since you'll have to reassemble the split-apart sequence in the video editor."

"Warning: the saved files are large -- 1 minute of HD video produced a file of around 150 megabytes -- so I had to use an outboard Maxtor hard drive for my recordings since my computer's main drive was filled with A/V test signals. HD Capture Utility can also be used to "export" M2T files back to the camcorder or even to the D-VHS video recorder."

"M2T files from HD Capture were not playable with the most recent versions I had of Windows Media Player, RealOne, or QuickTime. Nor were they recognized by Windows Moviemaker or my old favorite video editing package (Adobe Premier 6.02). They

There is a lot of relevant information in the article, which seems well-written. Another quote:

"I shot around 4 hours of video material with the GR-HD1, including scenes I deliberately chose for their difficulty, like the splashing fountains at Rockefeller Center and some animated neon signs in Times Square with their multitudes of tiny flashing lights. Afterwards, I was pleased to find hardly a trace of MPEG-encoding artifacts. "Mosquito" noise and other edge-related artifacts -- which can be visible even on commercial DVDs -- were nowhere to be found. This contributed to the looking-through-a-window clarity that the GR-HD1 will undoubtedly become noted for among videographers."

I found it interesting that Vegas 4 is David Ranada's "new favorite video editor" but found it a bit odd that he thinks that someone who had just dropped $3500 for a camcorder would balk at $500 for an NLE. Hopefully the JVC GR-HD1 is just the first of many good things to come for video enthusiasts who want to "step up" to high definition, and that Vegas will be part of the solution.

-- Seeker --
farss wrote on 7/5/2003, 4:51 AM
I've recently come from the SMPTE exhibition in Sydney, there I saw a Bluefish card playing out uncompressed HD from a PC. The utility to do this is still in test however once its available you will not need VV to support the card, just render out to a file and then use that program to print to a broadcast deck.

Having said that the Bluefish cards are NOT cheap (USD 10K plus) also the system it was running on had 10 SCSI drives and I would imagine a very fast processor. Add in the cost of a HD deck and this is not a toy that many are going to have at home.

I could be wrong here but anyone claiming to be able to edit uncompressed HD without a lot of hardware assist on a PC is having themselves on. Editing proxies is another matter which seems to be what a lot of systems are doing. You just have to look at the enormous amount of data that has to be moved around to realise how impractical it is. MPEG2 compression solves the problem of raw data rates but introduces its own set of problems.

Hopefully I'll soon be able to get my hands on a GR-HD10 and see how it goes with VV, so far I've been able to load in one of the demo files from NAB with no problems (just rename the file .mpg). Anyone who thinks VV is slow to render with DV though certainly shouldn't think about going down this path.
RBartlett wrote on 7/5/2003, 5:37 AM
I converted the girl-hd10.trp file mentioned over at CreativeCow (hosted with permission here at SoFo) by simply starting a new project using the .TRP to force a template, and then dropping the .TRP on the timeline (4.0c).

Worked OK, juddery Vegas playback on my P1.6 PC800:50MB/sec dedicated IDE drive. OK scrubbing but still sticky.

converted it to 720p MJPEG using the PICvideo codec (that comes with ShowShifter.com for $50, or standalone from $18). Pity to force yet another compression, but at Q=17, the quality held and srubbing and adding filters became slick again. MJPEG 720p HD seems valid for DV class systems despite the extra rendering step.

At best quality with a blur 0.02 and supersampling to 59.94 (I wish I'd chosen Smart Resampling alone now I think about it) - the render time for the JVC sample clip was 9 minutes. My WMP couldn't keep up with 59.94p anyway, but the result was a smooth 30p for whatever benefit I might have been trying to achieve.

Uncompressed HD would indeed be too much for my PCI32 sub 2GHz 400MHz FSB machine. I might try finding the sweet spot for MJPEG Q (constant quality grading in PICvideo) for HDV. I suspect 19 will still give good usability in Vegas.

I'm inspired by the sample JVC footage. Also reminded about my empty pocket and the fact that I am in PAL land.
rique wrote on 7/5/2003, 7:00 AM
M2T files from HD Capture were not playable with the most recent versions I had of Windows Media Player, RealOne, or QuickTime.

I renamed the .trp file with an .mpg extention and it plays fine in Media Player 9.
filmy wrote on 7/5/2003, 7:32 AM
I posted this link on its own thread the other day but in keeping with this thread I think it is interesting that the JVC rep (Who, FYI, was the VP on the pro business side of things) said some things that somewhat conflict with the info found here - HDV Specs. The fact that Sony bought SoFo and that these specs are a result of work between JVC and Sony (Among others) you would think that a VP might have some knowledge of VV, especially due to the fact it was one of the first NLEs to include support built in for reading HD files and creating them. (Although I did try to open a .TS [HD Transport Stream file] file in VV and it would not open. On the other side I tried creating a HD file in VV using one of the pre-made HD templates and then, using one of the free HD tools available for output via firewire, it would not open for playback because the VV created file was not a TS file...so I had to bring that file into Wombles Mpeg-VCR utility and convert it to an .M2T file and it worked fine. So even with VV built in HD support there is this little Program Stream/Video Stream/Transposrt Stream issue.)

So anyway - seems like all parties involved first need to settle on an HD spec first (The one in the link will not be final until September 2003 they say) before there can be true NLE built in support for HD. As for the Sound and Vision articles comment of VV "...but that costs almost $500." I think that means in relationship to the included "MPEG Edit Studio Pro LE" which Ranada says "contains as many editing features as the budding filmmaker is likely to need." In other words Rander feels that with a basic HD based NLE freely included you may not want to spend another $500 on a NLE that will only read the files but not input or output them to any deck/camera.


SonyEPM wrote on 7/7/2003, 9:20 AM
Question for those of you thinking about buying the new, lower cost HD cams coming to market:

How would you plan on delivering productions shot in this format? As some variant of HD...or as SD? Both?
videoarts wrote on 7/7/2003, 2:09 PM
At the risk of losing the thread topic, I must report GREAT results from editing 480 progressive mode in VV4c from the Panasonic AG-DVX100. With the latest updates, VV will keep 24p production all the way through to the final DVD product. The "film look" is absolutely there. Wonderful.
Juan_Martinez wrote on 7/7/2003, 4:48 PM
My name is Juan Martinez. I work for JVC Professional Products. I am very sorry for the weird phone call. Let me clarify a few incorrect statements from whomever your source was.

JVC is very interested in the High Definition production market and specifically empowering independent producers to shoot and edit in HD and finish in any resolution their client may request.

JVC is working with most major NLE manufacturers. At least one NLE solution will be available in a mater of weeks.

The firewire connection on the JY-HD10 or D-VHS deck carries the native HD signal. It is not only possible to control the tape transport but also capture and export full quality MPEG-2 HD or SD signal via the firewire. Please note that JVC’s D-VHS decks can record 1080i and 720P 60 signals at full spatial resolution via the firewire interface at up to 24.5Mbps. The picture quality holds up even when shown on a twenty-five foot screen. Major motion-picture studios are using JVC’s HD solution for digital dailies.

JVC Professional introduced two new D-VHS decks. JVC consumer introduced a new model to replace the aging HM-DH30000.

Due to the tremendous market response to our consumer and professional HD camcorders other major hardware manufactures have embraced our standard and are working with JVC to augment the standard
dvdude wrote on 7/7/2003, 6:55 PM
I'd probably down-convert to 480i/480p and do DVD until BlueRay/Blue Laser or whatever technology ends up dominant in hd dvd arena becomes available. Provided that I can write the hd back to tape, I'd be happy to wait.

I have to wait until the standards settle and Panasonic and/or Canon release a prosumer level camera anyway, so no rush.....

Andy
filmy wrote on 7/8/2003, 1:16 AM
>>>My name is Juan Martinez. I work for JVC Professional Products. I am very sorry for the weird phone call. Let me clarify a few incorrect statements from whomever your source was.<<<

You seem to be better informed than the VP is. ;)
filmy wrote on 7/8/2003, 1:25 AM
>>>How would you plan on delivering productions shot in this format?<<<

For me it would be the option of being *able* to deliver an HD copy. If a client came to me and asked for HD they would hopefully dictate the delivery method. For me personally I would want to be able to deliver a format that could be used - in other words I might shoot in HD for 'the future' but want to edit and output a SD copy for now. Likewise if a client wanted me to edit something they shot in HD I would need to either edit the native HD and output back to HD or I would need to be able to do an offline edit and conform the HD masters from an EDL.
wcoxe1 wrote on 7/10/2003, 2:50 PM
According to yesterday's news, Sony, JVC, Canon, and Sharp are part of a group that is establishing a new set of standards for "recording and playback of High Definition sources on cassette." "They expect to be finished by September 2003.

By cassette, I expect something like a Mini-DV or DV cassette is meant, but there is no clue of its exact nature. I hope by High Definition they actually mean 1920x1080 or better. But, who knows. This time next year could see a few VERY interesting machines on the market, if that report is true. I just hope they are not talking about a DECK with VHS sized cassette. UGH!

As for how it should be done: HD in, SD and/or HD Out. No point starting with HD if you can't get it back.
Barry_Green wrote on 7/10/2003, 3:37 PM
The specification is called HDV - for High-definition video on a MiniDV cassette. It will use standard DV tapes. The JVC HD1 conforms to the HDV specification (or, probably more accurately, the HDV specification conforms to the HD1).
vitalforce2 wrote on 7/10/2003, 4:00 PM
RE: videoarts post above: I also have done 24p on the DVX100 through DVD stage, and the results are so impressive that the whole film crew and cast insisted we continue shooting and not stop with a short-film version of a WWII love story. So: While the movie market (consumers) waits for HD to catch up with the common man, I am proceeding the rest of this year with shooting a feature film on the DVX100, to be edited in V4. We will be filing entries in Sundance, Cannes, etc., because we have no fear of people saying "that looks like video."
filmy wrote on 7/10/2003, 8:36 PM
>>>According to yesterday's news, Sony, JVC, Canon, and Sharp are part of a group that is establishing a new set of standards for "recording and playback of High Definition sources on cassette." "They expect to be finished by September 2003.<<<

Yeah - that is the same thing I posted above with the Sony Press Release from July 4.
kwshaw1 wrote on 8/15/2003, 3:58 PM
farss: CineForm doesn't claim to be editing uncompressed HD--they specifically state that they're using a compressed data rate of about 6-10MB/sec. That's still quite a bit higher than the 3.5 MB/sec data rate of the JVC camcorders, so I would think the finished results would be quite adequate for output back to the JVC format.