Yes, thanks. I think I've read that article but I'm not certain. Problem is, its just another manual tweak to compensate for the fact that the limiter isn't limiting properly. e.g., if you're getting a 5dB peak, then you have to reduce your entire audio by 5dB. And if you're trying to balance several files to the same level, a 5dB drop in one file is annoying. Plus you have to run the audio one final time to even determine that max peak value, since AFAIK, VV3 doesn't give you a max peak summary. But thanks anyway. I think I'm really just trying to re-raise the awareness with Sonic Foundry that the limiter is bugged and it is a concern.

I'll start off by admitting i might be a bit confused as to what you're trying to do. It sounds to me like you're trying to use the limiter to correct a problem you're having during recording. The effects in Vegas are all post-recording. You can't use them to adjust something that's happening while you record. If you're having over 0dB peaks, you have to deal with those while the recording is being done, and the limiter won't help you there.

Probably the only thing that can help you with the over 0dB pop after the fact is the clipped peak restoration tool in the Noise Reduction plugins.

No, he's right that is exactly what a limiter should do: LIMIT excursions to below a limiter's threshold.

The trouble Rich is probably having is a silly sore one that manufacturers of plugins need to fix.
In the computer world, dynamics processors ought to be able to TRULY look ahead ( not the way Waves does it). Since the file is already on the hard disk, there is NO reason for the app and plugin NOT to know where and what peaks are coming up. PC compressors and noise gates SUCK for the most part, because their attack is really, even SLOWER than their analog counterparts who have NO idea what is coming up.

But if the file already has the peak clipped, then no limiter in the world can fix that by reducing the level. The information is already lost (clipped) and all you can do with the limiter is make the pop softer, but the pop will still be there. You can't "unclip" after the fact.

Using an outboard limiter on the signal when recording, before the clipping occurs, will help avoid having those peaks in the first place though.

Let me see if I can clear up some confusion. First of all, I know I have a problem during recording. Its me and my TRV900 chasing after my 2-yr old :-) I don't know why I'm getting popping; perhaps I'm banging the camera, perhaps something else. Nevertheless, I do have occasional very short pops that peak at +x dB. I just want to make sure that I eliminate these pops before I subject my hifi speakers to them. Plus, digital distortion sounds awful. I don't care about losing information from clipping because the pop is very short and I just need a reduction in volume for perhaps 50-100ms.

Now a limiter *is* supposed to correct this. If I set the VV track compressor to "hard limit -6dB" with 0ms attack, then the max peak of the audio track should be -6dB. Period. If the input audio is less than -6dB, then no change. If the input audio is greater than -6dB, then the volume must be reduced to -6dB: from the moment of occurrence (0ms attack) to the last moment of occurrence plus the decay setting.
(And yes, I am aware of how awful and dangerous an overly clipped audio track can sound - square wave anyone :-)

Now thinking about the digital algorithm to accomplish this, I don't see that the volume control over the range of the effect is that big a deal. Plus I can observe that the limiter *is* working for non-popping audio. Therefore, I suspect the problem lies in the detection of the attack. Certainly a 0ms attack is hardest (impossible even, for an analog limiter) and requires some kind of lookahead/backtrack. But it is doable. And it doesn't work in the current Track Compression effect.

I'll work on my recording skills... Just hoping someone at SonicFoundry can bump this issue a little higher up in the To-Do list :-)

"Plus I can observe that the limiter *is* working for non-popping audio. Therefore, I suspect the problem lies in the detection of the attack. Certainly a 0ms attack is hardest (impossible even, for an analog limiter) and requires some kind of lookahead/backtrack. "

exactly
the attack time even when set to zero is most certainly NOT

this problem is even worse for noise gates, where a hard disk system should have a clear and pronounced advantage over an analog one, but still doesnt

even MORE fun:
try some of these sidechaining plugins....useless

ooops forgot.
SOMETIMES you can take your track and open it in an audio editor
then reverse it then run a limiter or compressor
then reverse it again and stick it back in the app

It is inadequate (SF trk limiter). Anyone who uses it this way will tell you.
You would be much better off with a hardware limiter, pre A/D, or a Timeworks mastering limiter or db limiter plug-in.

Test it. With tracks which are veified not clipping, raise the volume of the track(s). You will see the SWF trk limiter really doesn't do any limiting...where as the timeworks/db limiters will limit accordingly.

JoeD

One place that a limiter or comp is NOT going to help you is if you've clipped the sound card's input stage preamp or the A/D converters...the signal's going to be a big, flat square wave, and there's diddly you can do about it, short of the above-mentioned Clipped Peak Restoration tool in Noise Reduction 2.0, which is still kind of like a BandAid on a gaping flesh wound.

If you're going to drive your inputs that hard, you need outboard gear...like an RNC 1773 or something.

My $0.02 worth of babble.

Scott Stillwell

Time to bring up a very old thread and thank the Vegas programmers: The problem I complained about is fixed in the latest Vegas + wave hammer!

To summarize: In the past, the Vegas compression/limiting tools were unable to prevent certain "pops" that can happen with onboard camera mics. These pops are very short transients with dBs above zero. I've placed up to 3 limiting filters in series and still been unable to prevent distortion due to the clip exceeding 0 dB.

I just tried it with the latest release of Vegas and the Wave Hammer filter. Settings were: Threshold = -0.5 dB, Ratio = Inf.:1. Output gain = 0.0 dB. Attack time = 0.0. Release time = 50.0. Smart release = 0. Scan mode = Peak. Auto gain compensate = off. Use longer look-ahead = on. Smooth saturation = on. I also bypass the volume maximizer. The two critical values are the ratio and the attack time; adjust all others to taste.

With these settings wave hammer is a perfect(*) limiter. And it sounds really good too.

(*) Perfect limiter: Guarantees that no part of the audio clip will exceed the specified maximum value, in this case the Threshold value, which you of course set to something less than 0 dB.

Btw, if you're reading this and don't really know what I'm talking about, then no offense but I highly suggest you study up on the subject. In the digital world, anything greater than 0 dB is death, and a perfect limiter is real handy. Of course, the pros will make sure they don't have the problem in the first place, but that's another story :-)

I'm far from an expert so please don't take this as gospel, just what I've noticed.
I've oftenly had panic attacks using track compression with A/V. During preview I'd notice the meters regularly indicating clipping at well over 0dBFS. So I'd spend a lot of time tweaking to stop it happening until one day I just got fed up and rendered the thing out anyway. Well, the rendered output was just fine. So may be these things do use some degree of look ahead, it's just that when the processor is busy rendering video the lookahead gets ditched but with the non real time rendering process all goes well.

I'd be interested to hear of any of those with more audio knowledge find the same thing happening.

As to the original post, I seriously doubt clipping is going to damage your speakers, not to say it's not to be avoided but not for that reason. Sure it can sound horrid but without winding the volume upto 11 you should be safe. Best thing though is not have it happening when you're recording in the first place. Most camera's are pretty poor in the audio dept, they seem to employ fairly basic limiters which can let some clipping through if pressed hard enough.