lossless export to QT Pro?

navboy wrote on 5/12/2009, 7:29 PM
Just received Sony VMS 9, upgrade to b, first time user, really liking it. BUT, i'd assumed i could export my widescreen video to H.264 for streaming from my Darwing server, sending up to YouTube, MySpace, etc. but i cannot figure any output that give me any control over this - there is the mp4 render option, but no option for streaming, no control over aspect ratio, size, etc.

I do have QT Pro, so i guess if i can render losslessly in a format QT Pro will read, i could go throught all that to get my H.264. How do i do that in VMS 9? If it takes some sort of third party codec, any suggestions for one that won't screw my XP DAW up? Link?

thx so much, other than this stumbling block, i'm really liking it

Comments

musicvid10 wrote on 5/12/2009, 8:09 PM
Did you find the AVC render options?
Eugenia wrote on 5/13/2009, 12:09 AM
VMSP 9 does have control over Sony AVC, which is h.264. However, there's no streaming control, as none of the two h.264 encoders that Sony supports expose that option in the UI. You might want to install Avid's DNxHD lossless codec, export with that, load it on QT Pro, and then export from there in streaming h.264.
navboy wrote on 5/13/2009, 5:04 AM
Thanks, Eugenia

Ahh, for some reason the first time i looked, it didn't seem like i could edit the template i'd picked, but this time i picked YouTube and also Custom and there is quite a bit of control.

Still, i need to be able to create a streamable version for my Darwin server ... on the Avid lossless codec, do i just install it on my system and it will automatically show up in VMS9 when i go to Render As? I don't see Sony listed in their list of licensees .... the only thing i can see to download is a "Avid DNxHD Quicktime codec" ... Is that the one i'm after?



musicvid10 wrote on 5/13/2009, 9:00 AM
The VLC will convert to almost anything including h.264 with lots of streaming options. I haven't personally tried them, but it's free.
Eugenia wrote on 5/13/2009, 9:13 AM
VLC is the most buggy app on earth. Nothing exports as it should...
Eugenia wrote on 5/13/2009, 9:14 AM
You google it, or even better get the link for Avid DNxHD 2.0 from my blog. You install it, you find it under the Quicktime option set of codecs, you export with it, you load it on qt pro, and you export streamable h.264 from there.
navboy wrote on 5/13/2009, 5:40 PM
I did actually surf to your blog but couldn't find it searching for "avid" or "lossless" so i just downloaded the QT one from the Avid website i'd previously googled and installed that ...

I can't recall what the MOV options were prior to this since i'd only used VMS for an hour or so and didn't do any MOV exports - if i choose what is coming up as "Default template (uncompressed)" - is that the Avid codec i just installed?

Just want to make sure i'm on the right track here ...

-steve
Eugenia wrote on 5/14/2009, 6:12 AM
You download and install this:
http://avidtechnology.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/avidtechnology.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=77958&p_created=1238608931
Then you select the Quicktime exporting filetype, and then you click CUSTOM. There, you customize the export manually, and you select the right exporting options, along the DNxHD codec (you need to customize the codec once you select it too). It's not a template click and run job.
navboy wrote on 5/14/2009, 1:40 PM
Ah! Yep, that is the same page and same codec i downloaded. Thanks for the confirmation.

When i select MOV from Render As, it defaults to "Default Template" and then you hit the Customize button and from there.

I do see DNxHD listed in the video format list now in Video options. What was throwing me is that default template is "uncompressed" so i thought maybe that was automatically it, but i see now where to explicitly select the codec.

navboy wrote on 7/18/2009, 2:05 PM
Hmm, i can't seem to get this to work - wonder if i'm not choosing the correct export options.

Once i choose the MOV, and custom, and configure it, on the video tab i pick the Avid DNHD uncompressed, i also choose not to include "project markers" in the export, and export, it creates a large . mov file.

When i pull this into Quicktime Pro and try to export it to streaming H.264, i always get an "Error - an I/O error has occurred" in 7.6.2 and just "An unknown error has occurred" in earlier versions of Quicktime Pro.

If i try flattening the movie first by doing a Save As to QuickTime movie, in 7.6.2 it immediately writes a 1K file and stops. In older versions it labors away for a while and creates a large file of about the expected size, and then when it finished the file size drops to 1K and then it's done.

Eugenia wrote on 7/20/2009, 1:51 PM
>i pick the Avid DNHD uncompressed

Not uncompressed.
navboy wrote on 7/20/2009, 6:42 PM
Hmm, after poking around further i realized the problem is that i'd missed the Configure button for the video codec. There is a semi-disguised dropdown list (it displays funky for some reason) and it was defaulting to some 1080 setting at the top of the list.

I've since exported with two 720p 8 bit settings, but there is a 75 and a 110 and i have no idea what the difference is. Still, i'm not entirely sure what i'm doing here. These do seem to be exportable in QT now, though i have no idea what the idea setting is for what i'm doing. Getting closer, though.

The default template name that came up said "lossless-AvidDNxHD", but it doesn't seem lossless ... I thought the whole point of finding and installing this codec was to do lossless export into QT where i can then do streaming H.264. But there is not only a dropdown quality selection (that defaults to "good") on the main tab, there is also a quality slider (defaults to 50%) on the video tab. If it is a lossless export, shouldn't any choices related to quality be grayed out?

Eugenia wrote on 7/20/2009, 7:12 PM
You select the 1080i 200 mbps or something, which ever better reflects your res/frame rate.

However, there is another way to get streaming now with MP4 files from Vegas, new way: http://eugenia.gnomefiles.org/2009/07/13/tip-make-your-mp4-web-exports-stream/
navboy wrote on 7/21/2009, 2:49 PM
Interesting, i will check it out. Still want to get this process working because in QT Pro i can export both a hinted streaming version for my Darwin website server as well as a fast-start streaming version for general use on YouTube and MySpace.

I should probably go try to find an AvidDNxHD forum for this, but i've almost got what i wanted by choosing 720p 8 bit "110" (i tried the same but with "75" and it didn't quite render the necessary detail) ... Any ideas what those numbers 110 and 75 refer to? I did some Googling but nothing really explained it.

Eugenia wrote on 7/21/2009, 7:11 PM
It's bitrate. The bigger the number, the better quality you will get.
So for your case, if your source file is 720/30p (Vegas knows, you can find out in the clip properties), select the "720/29.97 DNxHD 110 10bit" option.
Eugenia wrote on 7/22/2009, 12:27 AM
I wrote a tutorial for you, here:
http://eugenia.gnomefiles.org/2009/07/22/exporting-to-an-intermediate-codec/
navboy wrote on 7/25/2009, 6:56 AM
That tutorial is helpful, thanks for doing that. It helped me realize more how the process works - it's not as automatic as i initially assumed in terms of generating a lossless file.

I'm going to give it another run today and see what i get. My last attempt was 720p 110 8-bit - it made about the filesize i would expect (a little smaller i guess) and streams okay over the web, but somehow between the DNxHD export and the Quicktime export to H.264 1100 kbps keyframes every 150, hinted/optimized (for Darwin server) a template that has worked well for me with other clips, i lose a major degree of contrast sublety - what is normally a faint pattern on a white field that slows grows darker and more obvious now just views as a white field until some critical point when it quickly comes into view ..

That 150 keyframes worked fine for me even on a video of a live modern dance performance, but i wonder if that could be what's getting me.

Anyway, today i'm going to try to nail down what the best export settings in DNxHD from Vegas are for this piece. How do i know what bit depth to pick? I don't really see it in the properties in Vegas. I'm also confused about whether to use deinterlacing or not ... the imported film footage shows a property of 720x480x32 NTSC DV (not sure what the 32 is) and Lower Field First, which would indicated interlaced (unless it just inherited that value from the project properties, which are the same, but with no Deinterlace option selected).

I thought i had good results in the past just treating everything as progressive and never invoking deinterlace, etc. I definitely don't do any of that in QT Pro on the final export for delivery. But since those settings must be specified manually in the DNxHD export config, i guess i need to figure out how to figure out which ones to use.
navboy wrote on 7/25/2009, 2:37 PM
Looks like i'm being bitten by a QuickTime gamma tag bug that is known to cause exactly the problems i'm seeing (washout, loss of contrast and color) in QuickTime H.264.

So, now i'm trying the route of just exporting H.264 from Vegas and using that MP4 FastStart utility to convert to streaming. But, which format/codec should i use to export to H.264 in?

I also notice that Avid pack i installed seemed like it had streaming on one of the tabs, not sure if anyone has tried that for their standard streaming clips in H.264?
Eugenia wrote on 7/25/2009, 3:15 PM
>But, which format/codec should i use to export to H.264 in?

There's only one in Platinum: SonyAVC. You just export like this:
http://eugenia.gnomefiles.org/2007/11/09/exporting-with-vegas-for-vimeo-hd/
but for HD web-streaming make sure you don't give it more than 2 mbps (the tutorial asks for 5, but it's not for streaming). That's the only change you will have to do.

If you are not exporting in HD, adjust the bitrate and resolution. Everything else would remain the same.
navboy wrote on 7/25/2009, 5:07 PM
Ah, interesting, Thanks. And yes, with H.264 anyway i've been constraining the total bitrate to around 1100 kbps (leaves video around 850 or so) which has produced good streaming results.

I did notice there is an mp4 extension listed in the Fraunhoffer AAC choice as well as one of the MainConcept choices ,,,, Any reason the Sony AVC is the way to go?

Also, i just realized something - while this other route will hopefully work for producing clips for YouTube and general web use, i just realized i'm still stuck as far as getting a streamable .mov version of some sort onto my Darwin streaming server, since the MP4 Utility will only input mp4's and any mov's, and QT Pro is exhibiting the gamma tag bug ...

hmm ... stuck again
Eugenia wrote on 7/25/2009, 6:18 PM
>Any reason the Sony AVC is the way to go?

For streaming Flash video files on your own site (via your own Flash player), it's the only encoder that can do that on Platinum. It's also the only customizable h.264 encoder on Platinum.

>only input mp4's and any mov's, and QT Pro is exhibiting the gamma tag bug

MOV files have the exact same gamma bug as MP4 do. So you don't lose anything there. You just use the MP4 instead of the MOV files.
navboy wrote on 7/25/2009, 8:07 PM
Sony - ah, got it

.mov files - didn't know mp4 had the bug, .mov was the one i had tried and noticed it then Googled it. I've only used .mov so far on that Darwin streaming server, will have to see how it does with other formats now i guess

think i'm getting tired - i can't remember now if we already covered the best way to output a streaming H.264 - is that one of the MPEG4 exports? Any favored codec for it?



thx
Eugenia wrote on 7/25/2009, 10:34 PM
We already talked about it: Export as we discussed with SonyAVC in .mp4, make it streamable, and use just that. Yes, it will have the gamma bug with Quicktime, there is NOTHING you can do to fix it, so just live with it. Quicktime applies that gamma to ANY kind of h.264, be it in MP4 or MOV, so just live with it. And MP4 works just as well as MOV, so there's no reason to try to find "more" ways to do things. The workflow is already given to you: you export with SonyAVC, and you apply the streaming hack with that utility I told you about. That's all there is to it.

You reply in this thread time after another, but the answer to your question is already given to you.
navboy wrote on 7/26/2009, 5:39 AM
I was getting tired - i forgot mp4 = H.264 since i've never worked with mp4 in the past. Also, i'm used to specifying how many seconds between keyframes when i do H.264 and i couldn't seem to find that anywhere - that reinforced the perception that i wasn't really doing H.264. I'm still not sure where i can specify that.

Actually, i did not see the gamma bug when i woke up this morning to the finished mp4 export with SonyAVC, even when played back in Quicktime, though i haven't tested on a Mac yet. I think it's because it's a direct export in this case and not a re-export in QT as when using Avid to get a lossless version into QT.

However, an odd thing happened that i hadn't seen before in the other exports before - my project has some old film footage that is reported 0.9191 as pixel ratio in 720x480x32 NTSC DV mpeg-2 LFF(looks to me like 1.33 aspect ratio) that is overlaid on imagery that is 720x405x24 with pixel ratio 1.000 progressive. The project is set at 720x480 pix ratio 1.2121 progressive.

So, the effect all along has been that of a 1.5 aspect ratio background layer with periods of 1.33 aspect ratio old film footage overlaid on top (with translucency, fx, etc). In the finished Sony mp4 export from last night, however, the background was 1.78 aspect ratio in a letterbox and the old footage covered the entire screen (not sure what aspect ratio).

So i'm hoping that maybe i left the pixel aspect ratio in the Sony render config at the default of 1.000 when it should have been 1.212. I'm going to try that and start the export and see if i'm back to normal on that.

The other slightly odd thing is that when i inspect the Sony mp4 in QT Pro, it cannot reported on the video stream's data size or data rate. Not that big of a deal, but the first time i've ever seen that, because i always inspect the stream info in QT when i've got video in it.