Making an SVCD - PAL issues

Begbie wrote on 4/10/2003, 5:32 AM

I m new to this - but i have been capturing video from my dv cam and editing in vegas then render as mpeg 2/SVCD (clicking custom does nothing?). BUT when i do this there is no way to set a constant bit rate, or parms for a variable bit rate (my dvd doesnt like em much over 1900 in PAL).

When i play a svcd made from vegas (svcd created in either vcdeasy or dvd movie factory) in PAL mode on my DVD each time the camera moves there is some artifical 'wobbilyness' around objects, it makes it unwatchable. The mpeg plays perfect on my PC.

If i switch my dvd player to ntsc the prolems is gone, (my tv handles either). But PAL is the source and also what i want to send the family vid to interstate rellies in who may not have ntsc.

So i either need to know what the fix is to this PAL issue, or i need to know how to make the output file from vegas bit rates specified. (any chance vegas will ever just pump out a SVCD?)

Also - if i do a render as to mpeg2 with whatever bit rates are default, then is it possible to change this bit rate again in say tmpeng? or is this a waste of time, and reduction in quality? I want quality.

thanks in advance

Comments

sdmoore wrote on 4/10/2003, 6:08 AM

Hi Begbie,

There was a problem with some people upgrading to V4 from VV3 where the Custom button would not work but there was a registry hack which fixed this. Can't remember off hand but do a search for 'Custom' and you'll find it.

Your 'wobbly' video is because the field order in wrong. I seem to remember that the field settings for the SVCD PAL template are incorrect. It should be upper field but it is lower field (NTSC is lower field which is why switching your DVD to NTSC works). Unfortunately you need to access the Custom properties in order to correct the SVCD PAL settings. Or maybe you can set the properties of your DV clip to be upper field instead of lower field as a temporary fix - that should make the 'incorrect' SVCD PAL template generate a correct PAL MPG2?

Cheers,

Scott

Begbie wrote on 4/10/2003, 6:26 AM

THANKS SO MUCH for that - that even sounds like a solution and i will be straight of to fix, yes it was an upgrade - should i uninstall and re install 4 from scrath and apply the 4b patch?

Also are you talking apply the lower field fix in the capture section of in the render section - i am a COMPLETE newbie at this.

Thanks again.

REALLY appreciate your help - i have sepnt prolly 30 hours on this.

TorS wrote on 4/10/2003, 6:28 AM

Hi Scott,
The minute after I read your post I noticed that the preset PAL DV (avi) in my Vegas 4.0 has lower field first. I was puzzled because you wrote that upper should be first in PAL. What do you make of it?
Tor

sdmoore wrote on 4/10/2003, 7:08 AM

Hi TorS,

It is a bit confusing - DV is always lower field regardless of PAL or NTSC. Only PAL non-DV is upper field.

Cheers,

Scott

sdmoore wrote on 4/10/2003, 7:11 AM

Hi Begbie,

Here's the info about the registry fix http://www.sonicfoundry.com/forums/ShowMessage.asp?ForumID=4&MessageID=171839

This should make the 'Custom' button work.

You should now be able to go into the SVCD PAL settings and make sure the 'field order' is set to upper field.

Cheers,

Scott

Begbie wrote on 4/10/2003, 7:34 AM

THANKS again. Will try that next - in themeantime i had been trying to use vv3 as the custom button was working there, but still in pal (after i speficied that capture and render should use upper field) i still got a similar problem, though lesser, it was still unwatchable. So i started using various CBR, maybe my dvd player doesnt like high cbr?

So in the proces of testing buts its a slow process.

Begbie wrote on 4/10/2003, 7:36 AM

SO i no need to change the capture template? Only change the render one?

this is very confusing for a newbie, but since i have HDTV, a progressive and a non progressive dvd player and 2400$ dv cam i want it to look good (i wanna re use the dv tapes), and VCD just dont cut it....getting there slowly, and since i have spent about $500 on xbox recently no way wife is letting me get a dvd burner yet :(

Is it recommended to use vcdeasy to make the svcd? or will this not make a lot of difference for my isue?

sdmoore wrote on 4/10/2003, 7:55 AM

Be careful not to treat capture & render settings as the same thing. If you're capturing from DV camcorder then capture should be lower field. The render settings should be upper field for PAL SVCD.

Scott

sdmoore wrote on 4/10/2003, 7:58 AM

Correct - only ensure the SVCD PAL render template is upper field.

I don't think it matters too much which app you use the generate the SVCD. The quality of the video is determined by the settings used to make the MPG2 - you can fiddle with these in Vegas' MPG settings dialog.

Cheers,

Scott

Begbie wrote on 4/10/2003, 8:05 AM

Sorry oi am such a noob - but is specifying the capture config when you hit New and setup all the settings? And the render settings when you to a render as?

Otherwise i am not sure 1. what the NEW file settings do, or where to specify the capture settings....

EDIT SORRY for so many questions: Does burn speed play a part? Just realised i was buring at full speed, when maybe i should burn at lower?

sdmoore wrote on 4/10/2003, 8:35 AM

I set the field order in the 'New' project settings to lower field for DV because that's what my footage is in. The field order setting in 'render as' is the one I ensure is upper field for SVCD PAL.

As for burn speed - I've heard that this can adversely affect the SVCD. Try burning at 4x if you're worried a higher speed may be affecting your SVCD quality.

Scott

Begbie wrote on 4/10/2003, 8:49 AM

Thanks for your help - but it aint working.

I set the NEW to lower and leave it as PAL DV (not widescreen), which is what the source is.

Capture about 15sec

Go to render as and change to upper, and change only the bit rate to various CBR - 1500, 1800, 2000, 2400, 2500.

Now it getts a lot worse at low and a lot better at high, but when the camera moves, or something in film moves, its like 'strobed'. This effect is not present on PC, only on DVD - read a few reviews on my player and it does high CBR but not VBR very well. VCD is no worries.

I tried ona some toshibas at work and they played the same, so something wrong with my encoding or capture :(

EDIT: OK tried on 2600 (you can over write the setting i find out) and its not too bad, but not exactly great....but certainly better.

My DVD supports HDCD, CVD, DVCD as well - would i better off with one of these you think? if so is this software capable of outputting that file tpe?

sdmoore wrote on 4/10/2003, 9:25 AM

Hmm, strange. One thing to check is the properies of your DV clips in Media pool - make sure they are lower field. You might want to check the software you're using to make the SVCD - VCDEasy I think you said. It may be that this is reencoding your MPGs with a different field order.

Scott

Begbie wrote on 4/10/2003, 5:06 PM

Thanks - i checked in media pool, it says lower field.

I can burn the sample svcd bin file from http://www.dvdrhelp.com/svcd and it works perfectly, so i will hunt around to see if i can get some one to tell me exactly what these setting are.

EDIT: When i specify the NMEW template - do i need to specify what the source material is? So i should say 720x576/24 25fps lower field then use the render as bit to change the res? OR what i want the captured video to be, eg 480x576 25fps

sdmoore wrote on 4/10/2003, 6:36 PM

As for project setting - I always specify the "PAL DV (720x576, 25.000 fps)" template in the New project dialog. Then I specify "SVCD PAL" template in the Render As dialog and go to Custom settings and set field order to "interlaced, top field first". I've always found that this works for me. As to why it doesn't work for you - I'm all out of ideas!

Cheers,

Scott

owlsroost wrote on 4/11/2003, 1:17 PM

Hi Begbie,

For encoding to SVCD, see http://www.sonicfoundry.com/forums/ShowMessage.asp?ForumID=4&MessageID=106772

(this is old stuff for VV3, but I suspect VV4 still has the problem - the symptom is the wobblyness you describe, and it doesn't seem to be field order related).

As far as field order is concerned, I always match the output field order to the source field order i.e. I render to lower field first MPEG-2 with PAL DV sources. MPEG-2 caters for either field order (there is a flag in the MPEG stream headers which tells the decoder what the order is). Although PAL is 'naturally' upper field first (DV excepted) and NTSC is 'naturally' lower field first, it doesn't have to be - it's just that most analogue capture devices keep to this convention.

Tony