Matching the beats

RexA wrote on 2/1/2004, 3:13 AM
This must have been discussed before but I can't remember seeing it recently.

Got some footage in a local place with a band in the background. Most of it people are dancing. I took it from several places while the same song was playing. Hard cuts between the shots will be jarring. I'm thinking fades, but I want to match the song beats.

With my fades between cuts during the same song -- I must match the rythm. Any advice on how to do that without just huge trial and error?

I got Acid and the low end version of sonic foundry avalible, but I can't see any real advantage for this task.

Comments

Grazie wrote on 2/1/2004, 3:40 AM
Welll .. you don't say if you've got the output from 2 cameras? Have you? If you haven't then what you will have is the veideo from one cammie needing to keep up the sync with itself. Rather you tahn me. I 've done a lot of 2 camera synching with 2 cammies, with people dancing AND made dissloves on the nbeat. The beat thing, IMHO, is not gonna be your problem. Getting the beat thing to work with 1 cammie is gonna be where you're come a cropper - yeah? I vaguely remember making the same comment some time back and having my wrists slap then. But I still think the 1 cammie disslove/cut on the beat is not gonna get you what you want. Having said that, you could get funky with pans/crops on the beat and take it from there. The underlying thing is that you have to keep the underlying sound "track" unaltered AND in step - as it were - with the dance . .

I've used Excalibur Multicam wizard. I suuppose you could artificialy create another camera "angle" by using the same camera angle and zoom in . . .there may be other ways you can "experiment2 to get a "different" approach . . .well worth the time . . Others will jump in here . .

. . . hmmm . .

Regards,

Grazie
farss wrote on 2/1/2004, 3:56 AM
To find the beats play the track, tap your foot or what ever and on the beat hit "M". You'll at least know where the cuts should go. The rest of it is the lap of the gods.
RexA wrote on 2/1/2004, 3:57 AM
Well I haven't tried any edits yet. Obviously there will be some contenuity problem if I cut, but its a heavy rythm blues song so I am thinking the cut won't be too bad (with a fade) --- remains to be seen. I can't see any way to avoid it though, I don't have multi cam or even a constant audio feed to sync to. I'm instinctively sure though, that if the rythm doesn't match between the cuts that it will be ugly. --- Hence my question about aligning the beats.
RexA wrote on 2/1/2004, 4:07 AM
LOL on the gods comment.

I have done the marrking thing on the beats before. Maybe this will help. I'm thinking, mark the second track elsewhere (Acid or Sonic Foundry) cut 2nd track a few beats before the fade and insert it to match the place where I want to fade in.

Is this good or is there a better way?
Grazie wrote on 2/1/2004, 8:52 AM
When I place markers to the beat, I literally hover my finger over the M key, and just tap out when listening to the music. It's dead easy - honest! If you want to improve matters, I suppose you could go to Edit Detail View [EDV] and "see" where the markers have fallen. Work out the beat interval and go from there. You can change the marker position by editing the numbers in EDV.

Any good?

Grazie
J_Mac wrote on 2/1/2004, 10:03 AM
Zoom in on the TL to place 2 markers, 1 at the beginning of your beat and 1 at the end. Double click to get your blue loop area. Move the blue loop and match the 2nd marker to the beginning of the loop area to double check the spacing to the next beat. You can do this numerous times to verify your spacing. With the blue loop area active around a 'beat space', look in the mid lower TL find the actual duration of your 'beat space' or blue loop area.
Open 'Insert markers script' in Wordpad or notepad and insert the time and frame count you want. Save with .js extension, open run script in V4 under tools, navigate to your new script and run it. Don't forget to eliminate the silence at the beginning of most music when added to the TL, before you run the script. The script will run and insert markers. The script is also in Excaliber.
I do this process first before any editing or adding video to the TL, because the script will only run without any markers on the TL., and the time code area immediately above the TL, must be set to time and frames. You can also decrease the audio playback rate with the yellow triangle below the track headers to ensure complete accuracy of y6our beatmarkers If you use stills be sure to set the length of them to match the beat duration under the ...Preferences, Editing tab. Good Luck, John.
Grazie wrote on 2/1/2004, 10:52 AM
John, have you just explained how to "write" a script"? - G
musicvid10 wrote on 2/1/2004, 11:04 AM
"... or even a constant audio feed to sync to."
Too bad. Trying to stitch audio from discontinuous takes is darned near impossible.
See if you can get the band to lay down the whole song using your video clips as the tempo reference.

This is the tried and true method to accomplish what you want. Lay down the audio track first, drag the clips around for a visual beat match, apply cuts and fades, any desired post effects, and render. Goes pretty quickly once you've got the hang of it.

J_Mac wrote on 2/1/2004, 11:43 AM
Grazie, I couldn't write a script. Merely changing the time to insert markers had to be explained to me by the masterful jetdv. Kudos to him for all the hard work. The biggest problem with my method is the beat markers rarly fit perfectly to the video frame per second time, so the marker duration tends to drift off the fps dictated by the vid format over the length of the music and needs to be manually adjusted down the TL. But it is still easier than loading and placing each marker manually. John
Grazie wrote on 2/1/2004, 11:51 AM
Oh I see. My method is pure muso . . Just run the audio<>video clip and sit there tapping out the markers on the M key to the beat you're feeling and hearing. Honest, it works a treat. Its not so fixed as the scripting and it allows for a bit more human interface to be part of the process . . dare I say an ANALOGUE input to DV? - ;-)

Grazie
RexA wrote on 2/1/2004, 12:39 PM
Thanks for all the suggestions. After a night's sleep, and everyone's advice, I'm thinking its not as hard as I originally thought when posting.

This was a quick and dirty video of the last big party at a local venu. I thought some record was better than none, so I grabbed my camera as I was leaving to go. No planning at all.

Maybe a measure of fade to black/silence at the cut points will be ok with what I have to work with. I'll have to experiment and see what feels best.
PeterWright wrote on 2/1/2004, 4:24 PM
If you can, create a map of the musical piece - verse/chorus, with the number of bars or counts in each, then label each separate chunk of video according to where it starts - e.g. Chorus 2nd Line Beat 4 - then you can minimise the "disruptive" effect of cutting from one part of the song to another by looking for places where you can match. You should at least try and keep the count going, in bars of 4 beats usually (though it could of course be a rhythm and blues waltz!)

Another way is by noting, as well as beats, what chord is playing and use this to match before and after cut points. There are many ways to make cuts work.

As to whether you visually cut or dissolve - depends on how the eye is lead from one shot to another - if the focus at the end of one shot is bottom left moving right, then suddenly it's top right moving downwards, this can cause an undesirable visual jerk - but on the other hand this may be a desirable effect.

As with all editing, it's often a "fly by the seat of the pants" thing....