Arthur, As I stated in your other thread;

While I agree that it's a bit weird that Vegas can not read M2V (and have complained about this before)... it CAN read AC3. It just needs to be in the right container. AC3 in a MTS or M2TS container will open on the time line, as will AC3 when imported from a dvd file. (Could be wrong but I believe this has something to do with dolby licensing).

I will also add that this board is more for the users of Vegas than for SCS to pick up on problems. If you have a specific issue with Vegas that you believe needs some attention.... this board is NOT the way to do it. SCS hasn't got time to sort out the technical issues on this board from the idle banter and chit-chat. Fill out a problem ticket (technical question ticket) and your issue will be addressed promptly and personally.

I thought if you rename a m2v to mpg then vegas reads it? Or is that a special mpeg format? I always assumed m2v was mpeg-2 just video, no audio, but no different then an mpg that's mpeg-2 with no audio stream.

Idle chit chat Blink? You can find complaints all over the net concerning these problems. Lots of people like myself, just getting on the Blu-Ray wagon, so only now finding out the inbuilt 'Gotchas'. Re the AC3 issue; Even MSP 8 - which is a comparative dinosaur of a programme can open and work with any AC3 file. It's just not good enough for a company of Sony's size and standing, for their 'flagship' NLE to be so ham strung. Licence issues or not.
If Sony aren't even reading their own boards, they must have their collective head up their back sides.
Thanks anyway for your input. Always appreciated. :-)

Note to myself; Must learn how to spell 'message'. ;-)

"Idle chit chat Blink? You can find complaints all over the net concerning these problems."
Well... you can find a few hundred problems on this board relative to........ the hundreds of thousands that use this program ;)

They have a proper technical email program. If you have problems then use it. As I said... this board is more for the users than for Sony to use as a problem solver. If however you don't wish to use proper channels, then good luck getting a fix for anything..... and it will be no one's fault...... but yours.

On the AC3 note; I have the SR11 cam (5.1 surround sound).

I have no issues importing AC3 at all. You need to learn how to use the program before you start whining about it.

Here's a sample MTS with 5.1 surround sound dragged directly from explorer to the time line. You will note all six audio tracks laid out and ready for edit:



Vegas is a pro level app (unlike msp8) that uses a CERTIFIED Dolby Digital encoding/decoding system. This allows certain privileges such as: officially using the Dolby name on your material. But there are certain rules that must be followed.

BTW.... most pro apps can't do this either... not FCP.... not adobe...etc.

Oh... and I have msp8.... it absolutely STINKS for AC3

"I have no issues importing AC3 at all."

Blink. So you can create an ac3 file, then import it straight back into Vegas?.......Didn't think so. I used MSP as an illustration because it's essentially a dead programme (and deserves to be so) yet it can still do that simple thing.

Vegas not recognising an ac3 file or an m2v that it's created, isn't me or anyone else having technical issues that are going to get solved by an e-mail to their techs - they're built in faults. If they're highlighted on public forums like this one, hopefully they'll eventually do something about it. Publicity is what fuels big companies.

I wouldn't waste my time leaving a "message to Sony" on any other forum, but I just kinda thought that these being their own boards, maybe they keep an eye out here. They must be interested in feedback surely? Especially with the launch of 9.0. Do you really believe that they only rely on e-mails for feedback on a product?

I am NOT anti Vegas. I've been using it since 6.0 and absolutely love it. It's the most error free NLE I've ever used. But the ac3 thing has been there forever, and now we have a new one with m2v. This is a major fault IMO.

Whingers of the world unite!! Maybe then Sony'll get around to fixing it.

"Vegas not recognising an ac3 file or an m2v that it's created,"

Again... the M2v thing IS a bit irritating, and it's not "new" either.... Vegas has been able to produce (and not read) M2V for a long time (at least version 6 or 7 that I know of)

But the AC3....
Adobe can't do it,
FCP can't do it,
Avid MC can't do it,
Avid Liquid can't do it,
Edius can't do it

Pro level sound editors:
Adobe Audition can't do it (unless you have an unofficial plugin),
Sony SoundForge can't do it,
WaveLab can't do it..... etc.

These are all expensive pro level apps which can not directly open a AC3 file... and there is a reason for it..... that reason is licensing. Vegas in fact is about the only pro level app out there that includes certified Dolby systems and can deal with AC3 with any detail, straight off the shelf.

Cheaper consumer level apps DO have a somewhat limited ability to deal with AC3, but the systems they use are not certified Dolby systems and as a result suffer restrictions and limits.

Now, there are some back doors available if you really need to get a AC3 file directly onto the time line and those back doors work just fine. In fact I would say those back doors are a hell of a lot cheaper route than having to shell out lord knows how much more money to Dolby for the luxury that you speak of.

Point blank....with the AC3.... there is NOTHING to fix.

I wouldn't waste my time leaving a "message to Sony" on any other forum, but I just kinda thought that these being their own boards, maybe they keep an eye out here. They must be interested in feedback surely?

on the forum listings: However, if you require immediate technical support, please choose from the options on our Support Home Page

Simplest work around for multichannel audio if you're using Vegas is to export to multiple WAV's or a single multichannel WAV & use that. For video don't render to final BD output. Both AC3 & m2v are highly compressed.

Guys, we're kinda getting off the track here. My main complaint is that Sony have set up DVDA to only create Blu-Ray from m2v. But Vegas - though it can create m2v - can't read it. That just isn't logical. Aren't they supposed to be on the same page? It's new to me, because I've only just gone down the Blu-ray trail. The ac3 thing is an aside. Mentioned because it's a similar situation. It's no big deal. Just irritating. If it is a licensing issue, a massive company like Sony should just sort it.

HappyFriar, not sure what you mean by "For video don't render to final BD output"? I know m2v and ac3 are compressed formats, but what else can you use for Blu-Ray output?

"But Vegas - though it can create m2v - can't read it."
I will agree with you that this is a pain in the ass. There have been times when I have wanted to pull a freshly rendered M2V back in for a minor touch up.... but of course you can't. I've dropped this issue into the Sony suggestion box and as I have hinted SEVERAL times now... it would help if you and others did the same instead of whining about it on the board where they're NOT going to see it. I'll even supply the link for you:

http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/support/productsuggestion.asp


"If it is a licensing issue, a massive company like Sony should just sort it."

Avid is a massive company, Apple (FCP) is a massive company... etc, and they haven't got it.... "sorted" either. You don't seem to understand that AC3 is owned (and regulated) by Dolby Labs. Any additional cost in licensing will simply get passed on to..... you and I.
No Thank you.

HappyFriar, not sure what you mean by "For video don't render to final BD output"?

if you think you might need the footage later, don't render just to BD format. Easy: batch render to two formats. Problem solved.

Ok... I had a long logical reason why vegas perhaps shouldn't & need to support the BD mpeg's, but then I decides to test render settings.

the ONLY difference between the BD templates & the other templates are two things:
1) the video buffer in BD is 0. Vegas doesn't allow it to be 0, so if you click in there it defaults to the min of 20, if you manually type 0 in it defaults to the min of 20. But importing isn't affected by this,
2) the BD template has the "separate in to elementary streams" box checked under "system". *THIS* is what stops you from importing. It will render out a separate audio & video file if you have this checked & there's an audio track on the TL. If ou UNcheck this box then you can import BD rendered mpeg's to the TL.

Someone who can burn BD's, please try unchecking this box & see if you can import that mpeg in to DVDA & burn a BD w/o the need to rerender. If it doesn't need to rerender, then I'd suggest setup new templates with this unchecked. IMHO I'd setup new templates anyway as ALL sony templates have the quality slider as the mid setting vs high.

" If it is a licensing issue, a massive company like Sony should just sort it. "

To the best of my knowledge this has nothing to do with licencing at all. I don't know how Blink got that idea or any of the other notions he's been blathering on about into his head. Dolby never designed ac3 for any purpose other than "emission". In other words final content delivery. It is simply not designed to be edited, even switching it through a broadcast system is fraught with problems. This is why no serious NLE reads it, no serious NLE user would attempt to read it. The article here provides some background to the complexity of the ac3 system.
Vegas now provides a robust mechanism for dealing with multichannel sound, we now have support for polyphonic wave files and as many channels of audio as you desire can by rendered to a single file along with vision. Vegas unfortunately still comes up short compared to other "Pro" applications as it cannot embed timecode with audio i.e. no support fro creating BWF files.

Bob.

"I don't know how Blink got that idea or any of the other notions he's been blathering on about into his head. Dolby never designed ac3 for any purpose other than "emission". In other words final content delivery."

Really?
So why do they have Professional DECODERS? Why is it that Vegas opens a ac3 file from a mts file... or from a surround sound dvd? Why is it that Vegas will allow you to edit AC3... a so-called "final delivery content"? I suppose you're not supposed to edit the dolby coming from the Holophone either.... right? You're just supposed to use it as is. (Also take note in the link that they have a category for separate encoders and decoders)
http://www.dolby.com/professional/getting-dolby-technologies/getting-licensed/index.html

Why do you "blather" about this idea that ac3 is only for content delivery??? Who made this rule??? Please show me ANY where in the Dolby rule book that states your rather.... 'reaching' claim. Honestly bob... if you're going to place imaginary facts on the board.....

Check out Surcode Bob. It's what they use for PP (NOT included). This software is officially recognized and can encode/DECODE.... have a look at the price tag too while your at it. Of course the decoder section is pretty useless because AC3 is for final content only ;)

http://www.minnetonkaaudio.com/products/surcode.html

FWIW, & this BTW is *anything* but new...

Vegas & DVDA have always preferred a somewhat unusual mpg2 format. With the file extension .mpg, it includes extra stream/file data, similar to the more usual .mpg which denotes the presence of muxed in audio. TO get .m2v from .mpg, demux. To get .mpg from .m2v, mux without audio. Other, similarly easy methods are available for alternative mpg2 streams, which there are plenty of. ;-) There are loads of apps to perform conversions (more than when DVDs were the main goal). All this BTW without re-encoding. It is annoying that straight up .m2v is not directly supported -- my personal guess is that something in Vegas &/or DVDA requires the extra data included in .mpg. I have found some compatibility differences, done tests etc that lead me to believe it's more that just the check for audio being included, but on this, as always I may be wrong.

Another annoyance is that Vegas / DVDA will not accept .avs files. [a shame because AviSynth really is mainstream] That said, VFAPI has been kept around chiefly because of that limitation in Vegas / DVDA [according to a thread with Donald Graft anyway]. For some projects DGAVCDec or DGMPGDec, combined with AviSynth & VFAPI yield an arguably better way to put many video formats on the time-line [especially mpg2] -- AviSynth & VFAPI together work with many more. Unfortunately 64-bit Vegas is so far a deal breaker for using VFAPI, but that's so far...

Still another MIA is .wtv, which I'm betting Adobe has before too long.

Debate re: (in)ability to import AC3 confuses me... AC3 is by & large un-editable. AC3 packets can be deleted so the file is trimmed, directions to the decoder / player perhaps tweaked, & empty packets added to effect total length. If you're editing video (not trimming the end off), AC3 is pretty much useless. When Vegas/DVDA accepts it, you're seeing temporary wav files. It doesn't seem a huge difference to me if Vegas does the conversion to wav, or you do it separately, as I prefer, believing I get better results that way. In DVDA in most all cases importing AC3 is just used for preview to check timing. Are there licensing issues? Probably... Most all AC3 ->wav tools make use of reverse engineering, while software with licensed AC3 encoders (like Sony) limit it quite a bit. But the utter uselessness of AC3 on the timeline of any NLE has to have some effect.
----
"Note to myself; Must learn how to spell 'message'"...
That's why I use FireFox -- spelcheking ;-)
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"Cheaper consumer level apps DO have a somewhat limited ability to deal with AC3, but the systems they use are not certified Dolby systems and as a result suffer restrictions and limits."

FWIW I haven't seen any limits really decoding using free or open source tools... Encoding is another matter, though I may be being a bit too demanding when I say that.
-------
Edit: adding in my own 2 cents worth re: AC3, delivery or not... Mpg2 was a delivery format, conceived & bred. Same with wmv, yet now it's to being promoted by MS for capture & workflow. Wma? Same. H263/4? Most definitely delivery only, yet today it's edited. I'm not smart enough to tell everyone else they're wrong to edit this stuff, let alone design hardware that outputs it for editing. Sure I'd prefer uncompressed vid & audio, but I'd also prefer 40 or 50 TB for temp personal storage -- I'm greedy.

Well... I personally don't think of AC3 on the timeline as "utter uselessness".... but the fact is that Vegas will do it.... under a controlled set of circumstances..... and with these 5.1 consumer cams becoming more and more popular... this idea of editing a "final delivery" format becomes more and more real.

"this idea of editing a "final delivery" format becomes more and more real."

Oh Yes... It S****, because AC3 is lossy & there's no way to do much until you strip the data out of the packets, which BTW can be all sorts of varying lengths, being padded sometimes to maintain sync. But it's like jpg, originally never envisioned as ANYTHING other than a distro format, and now we have millions of still cameras generating nothing but jpg. The world would be much nicer IMHO if everyone didn't hate Microsoft, & used wma stereo & multi-channel when space was a constraint, but they do & they don't. ;-( 'Sides, AC3 on the box probably helps sell cameras, or so some idgit in marketing thought.

"'Sides, AC3 on the box probably helps sell cameras, or so some idgit in marketing thought."

Indeed. That's one of the main reasons I bought mine. But I will say that if you've ever heard the sound produced from one of these cams, then you'll have a tough time going back to any on-board plain Jane stereo mic on any other consumer level cam.

As for editing lossy formats... what intentions one has (or had) for these various formats when originally created.... is out the window. All bets are off when it comes to confining any of them to a "delivery format". (As you said), I remember when people scoffed at the mere idea of editing mpeg2.... now it's common practice.... and with things like "smart render"... it actually becomes advantageous.

As for editing AC3..... it's a blast and I'm always fascinated by it. The things that you can do with six channels on playback are just amazing. It beats the crap out of the normal boring stereo. It probably takes me longer to do my audio editing than the video editing portion....... by far. Of course if DVDa accepted multi channel PCM then I might just leave the AC3 behind in the dust.... but until that happens I'll take my fun with the AC3

I'm assuming "spelcheking' is a joke

"So why do they have Professional DECODERS?"

Of course they have professional decoders, duh. What do you think broadcasters use for monitoring.

"Why is it that Vegas opens a ac3 file from a mts file... or from a surround sound dvd?"

This has exactly what to do with anything? The original versions of Vegas didn't, however if you had a DVD playing app installed it could.

"I suppose you're not supposed to edit the dolby coming from the Holophone either.... right?"

From Holophone's own spec's:

"The six discrete channels are fed into a Dolby® Pro-Logic II encoder which outputs the audio as a stereo signal from a stereo mini-plug to dual XLRs, dual RCAs or dual mini-plugs."

Pro-Logic is NOT ac3. Please make an effort to understand the difference.

"Why do you "blather" about this idea that ac3 is only for content delivery??? Who made this rule??? Please show me ANY where in the Dolby rule book that states your rather.... 'reaching' claim. Honestly bob... if you're going to place imaginary facts on the board....."

Did you bother to read the technical article I supplied a link to??

In part: "The question I was probably asked most often was: "Why is it called Dolby E?" Simple: "E" comes after "D." So, as Steve Lyman likes to say "Dolby E is for Distribution and Dolby D (i.e. AC-3) is for Emission.""

Do you understand the difference between systems for "emission" and "distribution"??

"Check out Surcode Bob. It's what they use for PP (NOT included). This software is officially recognized and can encode/DECODE.... have a look at the price tag too while your at it. Of course the decoder section is pretty useless because AC3 is for final content only ;)"

I'm reasonably familiar with Minnetonka's product line. A few years back I came very close to buying one of their discWelder authoring tools. Thankfully I didn't as DVD-Audio never took off.

Oh yeah, I looked at the price tag, $295. Hardly something any "Pro" would think twice about. Maybe you're just one of the whingers who expects everything for free in this world. Oh but hang on, the Dolby E encoder bundle is $4495. That's cheap my son, you should see what Dolby's hardware Dolby E encoders and decoders cost.

I'm pretty familiar with Dolby's hardware products, I own a Dolby SR hardware encoder/decoder. Yes their stuff is expensive, over $5K new for that unit if you want to buy the last new one they have in stock but it does a splendid job if you work with R2R tape, money well spent.

Now I'll ask you a simple question. Show me ANY professional audio recoder that uses Dolby's ac3 system to record surround sound. I'm pretty familiar with all the kit that location audio guys use for recording and none of them encode to ac3. Why is that do you think?

While you're pondering that here's a link to one of Dolby's pages describing their Dolby Digital (ac3) system. Strange I don't see their flowcharts describing it for any purpose other than final delivery.

Bob.

"Of course they have professional decoders, duh. What do you think broadcasters use for monitoring."
Yes... the point is that they're broken into different categories.

"This has exactly what to do with anything? The original versions of Vegas didn't, however if you had a DVD playing app installed it could."
Let's stick to the issue at hand here Bob and not slide off on some wild tangent as you usually do. Your point is that Dolby is not normally decoded because there is no reason. It's for "final delivery content" If this is true then how come Vegas can (and does) open it for editing (under controlled circumstances)? Why does Surcode have a built in decoder... so that it can look pretty on the time lline???

"Why is it called Dolby E?" Simple: "E" comes after "D."
As I pointed out almost 2 posts ago I think it was Bob... the encoders/decoders are broken to different categories. Did you not understand me?

"Oh yeah, I looked at the price tag, $295. Hardly something any "Pro" would think twice about"
Maybe you're a rich man Bob... hats off to you. I however am not. $295 is next month's electric bill.

"From Holophone's own spec's:"
Jumping to conclusions again Bob? Please show me ANYWHERE a place the I refereed to the Holophone as DolbyDIGITAL???? Now there's a reason why I didn't do that...


"Show me ANY professional audio recoder that uses Dolby's ac3 system to record surround sound." The holophone. Granted, pro logic works slightly differently but the concept is there.
Not professional you say? Here.... let's have a look and see who uses it:
http://www.holophone.com/action.html

Please show me how many pro level apps include Dolby encoding... even though it's used on just about every commercial disk out there.

"Strange I don't see their flowcharts describing it for any purpose other than final delivery."
Ahhh yes.. here we go... YOUR interpretation. Once again Bob... please show me where it STATES AC3 is for final delivery only. Are there better formats to work with... ones that aren't as lossy? Sure there are..... but then we can edit ALL KINDS of lossy, "delivery" formats can't we. I sure Panasonic with their pro level avchd cam had no intentions of seeing people take their work and throw it out there as-is.... pretty silly notion don't you think?

Bottom line Bob... Words and concepts like "professional" and "delivery format" are highly relative terms. There are many "pros" on this board that have asked how to open a AC3 file..... for EDITING purposes. Vegas DOES in fact open AC3 files for.... EDITING purposes. They in fact just bolstered trimmer behavior to include AC3 for.... EDITING purposes. I do recall in our last debate over this your claim that they would never do something like that to the trimmer because it was silly and would serve no purpose.... or something along those lines anyway. Why? I do believe you said there too... something about AC3 being delivery content only.

This concept of "editing formats" and "delivery formats"... it doesn't exist anymore Bob. It's old school thinking. There's only "better formats on the time line" and "worse formats on the time line". Yester-year dvd players were restricted to mpeg2. Today just about all of them play divx, some form of wmv, jpg.... etc. Then we have blu ray players that play mpeg, avc, vc1...etc. They're all acquisition formats... editing formats... delivery formats. There's no real dividing line anymore.

To get back to the original thread; Apparently the m2v/m2t issue is already on the list of changes for Vegas/DVDA.

HappyFriar. Thanks for that info, but I've already been down the road of customising the BR templates:
http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/forums/ShowMessage.asp?MessageID=660220&Replies=15
Maybe I just didn't get them quite right. I'll maybe have another go based on your info.....