mics

joejon wrote on 10/29/2003, 11:37 AM
After doing a little research on microphones and following up on some suggestions from others in this forum, I think I've narrowed down my choices on a mic. The Rode NT3 was recommended, but it's not stereo, so the next step up would be the NT4. The other brand I'm looking at is Audio-Technica, the AT822 or AT825, both stereo condenser mics. As mentioned before, my son wants to record his sax, trumpet and piano music. I also want it to use with my camcorder instead of buying two different mics. Any one out there with an opinion on the Rode NT4 or the AT822/825? I was also told to get a small mixer for the computer, but I'm wondering why I would need that since Vegas has a mixer in the program and all these mics can work with a battery. In the project properties for audio, the default is 16-bit, should I change that to 24-bit or is 16-bit sufficient? Thanks for your help.

Comments

Chienworks wrote on 10/29/2003, 2:31 PM
What sound card do you have?

Most cheaper cards only have a mono mic input so you wouldn't be able to connect both channels of a stereo mic. A mixer would let you use the stereo line input instead. The preamps in the mixer would also be much better quality than what is on the sound card.

Most higher end cards don't have mic inputs at all. A mixer or some sort of mic preamp would be necessary to boost the signal to line level.
joejon wrote on 10/29/2003, 6:16 PM
I have a SB Audigy2 card. I was told that I should connect to the Line-in not to the mic input. Do I need the mixer to do this and would that give me stereo capabilities? I've never done anything like this before so I don't know how any of this really works. Maybe these mics are more than what I need for a home application, I'm not doing this for professional reasons. But I am extremely picky when it comes to quality. That's why I chose Vegas over the lower-end programs, they were too cheesy and didn't allow for much control over your projects. Also, I needed both a video editor and a audio editor. Any help is appreciated.
planders wrote on 10/29/2003, 9:16 PM
If you're going to hook a mic up to a line in, you will need a mic preamp or mixer to boost signal to line level. I bought an M-Audio AudioBuddy which has two XLR channels with 60 dB gain and phantom power. It can also be used for instruments. It's small, rugged, and sounds great. The two channels would also allow you to use the stereo mic you described; you'd just need a Y-cable (2 mono 1/4 inch plugs to a stereo miniplug) to connect to your Audigy's line-in.

A mixer would probably be overkill unless you actually need to mix down more than two channels to a single stereo line in at once.
Chienworks wrote on 10/29/2003, 9:17 PM
The line inputs are expecting a signal in the range of about 1 volt peak-to-peak, but the microphones only put out about 1/1000th of a volt, which is what the mic input expects. This is why you will need some sort of external amplification if you are going to use the line inputs. You can get a small mixer with just a few inputs for under $100. I just picked up a Behringer UB2222FX for $200 and it has 8 mic inputs. I believe they have a tiny 2 input mixer in the $60 range. This will amplify the microphone's thousandth of a volt to a level high enough for the line input on the sound card. Take a look at http://www.behringer.com/02_products/prodindex_ub.cfm?id=UB802〈=eng

There are other stand-alone pre-amplifiers that do nothing other than raise the individual mic signal to a line level signal. However, you would need two of these and they often cost more than $60 each. The mixer will do the job for both mics and also give you additional features such as EQ and extra monitoring options.
Cold wrote on 10/31/2003, 9:19 AM
Your going to need mic preamps, but you may also wish to convert to digital prior to entering the computer. I believe the audigy has an spdif in, I would suggest using this rather than the analog input for cleaner audio. Something else to think about is if you go for a small mixer, make sure it has direct outs, This way you can use it for monitoring as well. I've got one of the behringer mixers (eurorack mx 602a) and while the pre's are decent (not brilliant but acceptable), the lack of direct outs makes it less useful than it could be. By the way, I wasn't all that impressed with the stereo rode mic, I demoed it on several projects, then sent it back.

Good player=>Good instrument=>Good room=>Good mic placement=>Good mic=>Good preamp=>Good analog to digital converter....... Good sound.
oh, plus a little knowledge of gain staging, accoustics, electronics...
Steve S.
jester700 wrote on 10/31/2003, 11:25 AM
The Audigy would be fine for any audio destined for DVD; that is, that remains at 48k sample rate. If you ever want to do a CD and use a 44.1k rate, the Audigy will suck. It resamples everything on SPDIF to 48k, and its SRC is not particularly good.

I vote for a Mia, Audiophile, Revolution, etc.

Steve, your last advice is golden.
Weevil wrote on 10/31/2003, 11:23 PM
Yes I’ve got to agree, if you are going to spend that sort of money on a microphone you need to spend some money on a quality preamp and certainly some more money on a soundcard.

Like getting a great engine for a car that has terrible tires and suspension.
Geoff_Wood wrote on 11/1/2003, 5:16 PM
You want a stereo mic ? Try the Rode NT4.


geoff
Cold wrote on 11/1/2003, 8:28 PM
Sorry to disagree with you Geoff, but I tried this mic and wasn't overly impressed by it. It semed a little dark and didn't have thei maging I was looking for.
Steve S.
fishtank wrote on 11/2/2003, 10:34 AM
I have not heard the NT4, but I do have a pair of NT5's and have been impressed with them considering what I paid (under $300/pair).

The NT5 sounds kinda like a Neuman KM-184 at a fraction of the price. Great bargain IMHO.
Chienworks wrote on 11/3/2003, 7:48 AM
Steve, the insert jacks on each mixer channel make swell direct outs too. You need a three conductor plug with the tip and ring shorted together as the direct out signal conductor. Behringer even recommends this method and indeed illustrates how to solder such a connector in their manuals. We use this method in our church to bridge our 40 channel Yamaha house mixer (which lacks direct outs) to the 24 channel Mackie recording mixer.

If you don't want to do any soldering, Radio Shack sells a stereo 1/4" plug to mono RCA jack adapter that does the same thing. Plug one of these into the insert jack and you get an RCA direct out.
joejon wrote on 11/3/2003, 12:03 PM
The Rode NT4 is quite expensive and I've gotten negative feedback about it. How about the Audio-Technica mics the AT822 or AT825. Has anyone had experience with those mics? Thanks for all the other advice about mixers, etc.
Cold wrote on 11/3/2003, 5:28 PM
Appreciate the advice, but the little behringer I bought does not have individual channel inserts. The main reason I picked it up was to have a portable front end when I recorded on location (I've got a couple 02rs but they are anything but portable). In the end I brought along a small headphone amp and fed a monitor mix to this from the single fx out on the behringer and used the main outs as my feed (tracks panned hard left and right for seperation). This was starting to become a mess for simple 2 track location overdubs (normally grand piano), as I was packing a computer, monitor, a/d converter, mixer, headphone amp.... Recently I've picked up an older laptop (panasonic cf 45 p2 233) to which I've bumped the ram to 160, bought a usb 2 card for, bought an external hard drive, and bought the tascam us-122 for a front end. By the way, the tascam us-122 has very clean sounding preamps, is fully usb powered ( including phantom power) and works great. Now I probably won't get a location gig for six months.
Steve S.
stakeoutstudios wrote on 11/4/2003, 4:03 AM
I'd always prefer to have two mono mics than one stereo, as it opens up many more options for placement.

If however you want to plug it into a camcorder, I have no idea...

Jason
stakeoutstudios wrote on 11/4/2003, 4:04 AM
Good player=>Good instrument=>Good room=>Good mic placement=>Good mic=>Good preamp=>Good analog to digital converter....... Good sound.

lol, that's the best advice I've seen!
Weevil wrote on 11/5/2003, 7:32 AM
Good player=>Good instrument=>Good room=>Good mic placement=>Good mic=>Good preamp=>Good analog to digital converter....... Good sound.

Yep, it’s pretty easy really.

First two are the most important of the lot.
Rednroll wrote on 11/5/2003, 8:06 AM
Steve,
What type of onsite recording are you doing? It looks like you wanted to reduce your load. I think you could have done better by getting a newer laptop with a bigger HD, to elliminate the ext hd. Also, something like the USBPre www.usbpre.com. It is a small USB audio interface with Balanced IN/Outs, Phantom power, Ajustable Mic Pres, Spdif I/O and headphone jacks. You could have saved on lugging any mixer, additional headphone amp, and mic/pres. And yes the mic pres are very good quality too.

Maybe even with all the money you saved from not having to buy all that additional equipment, you could have gotten yourself into the P3 or P4 area of laptops.
Cold wrote on 11/5/2003, 8:03 PM
Hi Red,
Appreciate the advice, I ended up going with the tascam us 122, which has a pair of good sounding preamps (decent headroom) and a headphone output built into it. I sort of got into location recording by accident, because for the most part I can record everything within my studio - with the exception of piano. Piano was my downfall. As a favour to an artist for whom I was doing a large project, I packed up some gear, went to one of his friend's place and recorded their beautiful sounding bosendorfer(sp?) baby grand. I let some of my other clients listen to the takes... I now do location piano recordings about once a month, and live show recordings every couple of months. So I can't really justify a decent laptop, but I do like the cheap one I have now (I can sit in front of the TV and still check my email and the forums etc.) . By the way, the other gear I already owned (except the hardrive) and used, so no way I could have upgraded the computer.
If you've got any other ideas as to how I can rationalize buying a kick ass laptop ( or at least good reasons I can give to my girlfriend), I'm all for it!
Steve S.