Mixing for commercial release - listen

jmpatrick wrote on 9/23/2002, 10:00 AM
Hello all,
I'm starting to mix my band's new CD for a commercial release, and I plan to have the mastering done by a professional. However, I'm not sure what I should expect to hear from MY final mixes, compared to what I can expect to come back after the disc has been mastered by a pro. Can I assume that all the aspects of my mix (vocal level, bass guitar/kick level, effects, etc.) will be just as I expect them to be on the final release, or should I expect certain unexpected elements to be exposed in the mastering process?

If you have a second, you can hear where I'm at on the first song mixed:

http://www.illusionrock.com/audio/nightprey.mp3

It's an MP3, so not all the clarity's there. However, It's an idea of where I'm at so far. Any and all suggestions are welcomed. I especially would like to hear from anyone who has taken their Vegas mixes and had them professionally mastered and commercially duplicated. Problems encountered, surprises, etc. Also, who should master this beast...and what can I expect to pay? I'm in the Detroit area, and I guess I'd prefer to have the mastering done locally, but I'm open to any tips on good mastering houses/engineers regardless of location. We're looking closely at having Discmakers duplicate the discs...and they also offer mastering. Who knows how good they are?

Thanks!

jp

Comments

edna6284 wrote on 9/23/2002, 11:13 AM
Hi JP,
While a good mixing engineer can sometimes make a song sound completely different, the basic arrangement and recording choices the recordist made still make or break a record. The old phrase 'garbage in, garbage out' applies.

It's hard to comment on the mastering of any one song, since the process involves making sure a number of songs hang together well in terms of level and basic energy level across the whole frequency range.

To try to answer your question, yes: a bad mixing engineer could do a lot of damage to your recordings. If you don't trust the person doing the mastering, it might be wise to look around, or at least get a handful of projects they've worked on to see how they sound.

Remember, a good mastering engineer might listen to a recording and say, "this is fine." You need to find people who don't have a NEED to play with your work just for the sake of it.

To comment on your recording, if you don't mind: The snare drum is so bright, to the point of it sounding like clipping, that I would suspect a mastering engineer will want to try and fix that. You might want to go back and take a look at that, and re-mix if possible.

This could be the result of two problems: You're mixing at loud volumes, and therefore fatiguing your ears and losing your high-end sensitivity (which will result in hearing loss eventually, you might want to take care) or your monitors or amplifier aren't putting out enough upper-range fequencies, which is resulting in your over-representation of the highs. I'm talking up around 8-10K.

Cheers, D
jmpatrick wrote on 9/23/2002, 11:38 AM
Thanks! Fixing the snare EQ is no problem. As I said, I'm just starting the mixing...and am open to any and all suggestions. I monitor with a Fostex PS 3.1 system: http://www.fostex.com/Products/ps31.html. Not the greatest, for sure.

I appreciate your comments. I'll keep tweaking it and report back.

Thanks again.

jp
PipelineAudio wrote on 9/23/2002, 12:44 PM
Great stuff!

Im not so shure about anything being too bright, as people mix with !@#$ toilet paper over their tweeters to get things brighter. As a contemporary commercial recording, this mix is in no way bright ENOUGH!

That said I HATE that bright and overcompressed crap they make today.

So I do agree 100 % with edna :) fix the damn snare, and build up the kick too!!!

Im putting my flame suit on but I believe that there are three parts to a song

1: the kick drum
2: the snare drum
3: the rest of the song

and Im NOT a drummer

For this song, I think the drums should HURT you
and maybe some more interaction between the drums and bass. ( if sidechains would !@#$ work better in Vegas this would be an easy thing to do )

I think this song is cool in all ways tho, just needs some more impact BEFORE it goes to the mastering lab
drbam wrote on 9/23/2002, 3:55 PM
Nice work. I personally don't think the snare is too bright. Its just a wee bit too hot in the early part of the track and then seems to sit better as the song progresses. I would bring the kik up, snare down a bit, and bring the lead vocal up some in the first half of the verses (some compression might help the vocal). Work on having the bass and kik really sit well together. Once you have that happening on a track like this, you're half-way home. I agree with the comments about having it as close to a final record as possible before mastering. Make sure to have your stereo bus peaking between -6 and -3 db so the mastering engineer has something to work with, and I would not put ANY compression or limiting on the stereo bus. This is mastering engineers' major complaint. If you've got the budget, for many reasons, try and work with someone local. DiscMakers is probably just gonna put it through a finalizer and not give it much individual attention. Good luck!

drbam
jmpatrick wrote on 9/23/2002, 4:03 PM
Thanks. I think I'm leaning towards going with local engineer.

jp
Rednroll wrote on 9/23/2002, 4:31 PM
Well if you're mixing this CD for commercial release, here's some HONEST good advice for you. Sorry, but you won't appreciate it....but I'm being honest, and I took the time to download your song and listen to it...so you get to hear my bashing...sorry :-(

First off...the mix is good. I didn't listen to it on my studio monitors, so I can't be a judge of kicks and snare tonal qualities. It sounds WELL mixed, and mastering could put the final touches on it..........but!!!!

No matter how well you mix crap.....it still smells like poopoo when you're done.

Advice:

1. THE 80'S ARE OVER, GET WITH THE TIMES!!!!! The guitar sounds like a cheezy 80's pop riff. The Verse is a rip off of Def Leppard's "LET IT GO". Go pick up Def Leppards/High N Dry album and see what I'm talking about....Therefore, YOU HAVE NOT ONE BIT OF ORIGINALITY. If I can pick, that verse out of your song, what do you think 90% of the "Commercial" people will do? I actually like, Def Leppard so I did enjoy the verse....the difference is that YOUR chorus is anti-climantic....Go listen to "let it go" and maybe you can rip the chorus off too.....Only problem is that you'll need a time machine to take you back to 1982, to give you a shot of having a hit.

2. Re-record your guitars. Rent a Les Paul and plug it into a marshall and crank it up to 11!!! Do you hear any commercially released music today, have a wimpy guitar part and tone like your bands?....Answer:NO!!!! You need some meat behind that guitar part, and your guitar tone has none. The Flock of Seagulls play guitar with more balls than that!!! Go listen to Disturbs, "Down with the sickness" album and God Smacks/"Awake" album at least 100 times, until you start to grow some hair on your cahoonies and realize what guitar tone is all about.

There's my 2 pesos....take it or leave it.

jmpatrick wrote on 9/23/2002, 5:31 PM
lol! Thanks for the honesty...I'll pass it on to the guy that wrote the song. The rest of the band picked up the D.L. "influence" the day the song was presented to us...and had a mighty good laugh. Keep in mind that some people play music (and release CD's) for reasons other than commercial success. As for the guitar...Godsmack and Disturbed isn't my bag, so I'm not interested in that tone. I use a Strat with single-coil EMG PU's and a Boogie Dual Rectifier. I prefer a thinner tone (Blackmore/Trower)...so I've always used the single-coils.

Glad you liked the mix!

jp
jmpatrick wrote on 9/23/2002, 5:40 PM
Maybe that wasn't real clear? We're recording a CD for the people that come to see us play...and already tend to like what we do. Basically, we're old men who have been playing together for ages. We have no commercial aspirations for success beyond the friends we perform for.

That's how we can laugh at a song that sounds like bad Def Leppard and still have fun playing it at the same time.

Thanks again for listening.

jp
PipelineAudio wrote on 9/23/2002, 6:01 PM
PLEASE tell me with that strat / EMG combo that you have a scalloped neck!

play what you like. On the rare occasion these days when I pick up a guitar, I play " neo-classical hardcore punk". ESP with scalloped 24 fret neck, floyd rose, trem setter, with EMG 89's...oh yeah, AND I play 8's.

jmpatrick wrote on 9/23/2002, 6:32 PM
No scallops...but I used to play 8's!

Here's my gear page:

http://www.illusionrock.com/gear.htm

I'm not much of a gearhead anymore. I've got a setup that works for me as soon as I plug it in...so i just don't care. We have a blast on the rare occasions that we lug our gear out to play in front of people, which is what counts.

jp

Rednroll wrote on 9/24/2002, 8:49 AM
JM, I'm glad you didn't take major offense on my criticism and bashing. Like they say, "different folks, different strokes". If you're having fun, doing your thing then no harm done. I just like to be honest, and most of my clients that know me, appreciate the honesty, because I hate to see them waste their time and money producing something that just don't seem to be happening or is too close to something that's been here and is now gone.

One of my clients that I've done some mastering for in the past, you may have heard of since you're from Detroit. Jocaine? They get a lot of airplay from WRIF when they're showcasing local talent. I've had to tell them boys more than one time, "Your stuff is cool.....but it sounds tooo much like a Kid Rock and Limp Bizkit rip off." Detroit doesn't need to be known as the next "Kid Rock clone factory", like Seattle became the Grunge/Nirvana thing. They've been developing they're own style since then and have a lot of talent to back it up.

What's the name of your band? Maybe I've seen you around town, or need to come and check you guys out sometime?

From an engineering perspective, your mix sounds good and I've had to polish a lot of terds that have sounded worse, when mastering. So keep up the good work.

Rock on,
Red
jmpatrick wrote on 9/24/2002, 8:58 AM
Rednroll, are you in the Detroit area? If so, send me an e-mail:

jp@illusionrock.com
Rednroll wrote on 9/24/2002, 1:05 PM
"Rednroll, are you in the Detroit area?"

You mean my usual rude bluntness, along with the F-you attitude wasn't a dead give away?

Lol :-)