Monitor for color correction

craftech wrote on 12/14/2006, 1:12 PM

Seems like overkill to me. I don't know what you are getting for color correction that you wouldn't get with this one.

I have this one as does Grazie. We both really like it for color correction. Well built and accurate easily the equal of a Sony. For HD it would work just fine in terms of color correction. The one you mentioned seems like overkill as I said.

John

Paul_Holmes wrote on 12/14/2006, 1:21 PM

John, I'm curious, have you found having a professional monitor a great advantage over a normal TV. I just bought a $120 Magnavox 14in flat screen and use several tutorials to color-correct, plus a blue gel. Video I color-corrected with my old Sony 14 inch seem to scope out well on this color-corrected one. (By scope I mean appear just as true as before). I've thought of budgeting for the monitor you're talking about but I don't really want to spend $500 if I don't have to.

Paul

craftech wrote on 12/14/2006, 1:38 PM

John, I'm curious, have you found having a professional monitor a great advantage over a normal TV. I just bought a $120 Magnavox 14in flat screen and use several tutorials to color-correct, plus a blue gel. Video I color-corrected with my old Sony 14 inch seem to scope out well on this color-corrected one. (By scope I mean appear just as true as before). I've thought of budgeting for the monitor you're talking about but I don't really want to spend $500 if I don't have to.

Paul
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I can't really argue against using a TV since I did it for a long time myself and even engaged in arguments in past threads with those who said a professional color monitor was an absolute necessity. If you calibrate the television against a bunch of other televisions and ballpark an average rather than relying strictly upon the gels and color bars you can get by without the professional color monitor. You really do however need to try the video on as many different televisions as you own or have access to and leave them all set at the factory default settings.

After you determine which manual settings on your calibrated TV/Monitor gove you the most accurate results when later played on all televisions LEAVE IT ALONE. If you take a television / monitor and adjust it using the gel and color bars alone the videos will almost certainly come out too dark and the colors may be off.

When I finally broke down and bought the JVC I have to admit it was a lot easier because the comb filter and other circuits aren't present that affect the image. The $470 I paid seemed like it was well spent for a quality monitor like that one, but as I said, I didn't add it right away. I actually bought it around a year ago.

The AVIA Guide to Home Theater and / or Digital Video Essentials: Optimize Your Home Entertainment System have very good color correction and calibration tools and are well worth the money.

SimonW wrote on 12/14/2006, 2:56 PM

The one thing most people forget when talking about colour correction is the effect ambient light has on your view of the monitor, as well as how your eyes behave over time. These IMHO are more important factors.

GlennChan wrote on 12/14/2006, 3:38 PM

1- Manufacturers tend to put newer models onto the market. i.e. Sony constantly does this. Discontinued models aren't bad at all... in some cases, they are better than the newer stuff (i.e. the Sony PVM series in my opinion is definitely better than the Luma series LCDs that have replaced them).

Lately, a lot of CRT lines have been discontinued due to lead-free requirements (i.e. sony PVMs aren't being made anymore).

2- HD monitors currently are evolving quickly and getting better in price and performance. For CRTs, it's difficult for them to get full 1920x1080 HD resolution. The 32" BVM-A costs somewhere around $45k, and does 1000 lines of resolution (which is good for HD) but can't hit the SMPTE standard of 35fL (although brightness is not that big a deal). The smaller BVM-As don't do 1000 lines (I believe they can hit 35fL).

LCDs don't do interlacing perfectly and have raised black levels to contend with. Of the cheaper LCDs, they don't have 1920x1080 pixels (which is bad, since you won't have full HD resolution and scaling artifacts). Some of them have colors that are a little off; calibrating them is possible, but it requires the money / R&D. I believe that LCDs are actually easier to calibrate since they never drift. By calibrating I mean implementing something like a 3-D LUT, which does a lot more than adjusting the monitor for color bars.

The prices of LCD broadcast monitors should come down, so eventually you should see affordable HD monitors that do full 1920x1080 and have good color (lower black level, good calibration). That being said, some of the discontinued CRTs right now may not be a bad idea either.

3- Professional monitors versus consumer monitors:
Pro monitors can be calibrated better / have more extensive controls. LCDs are calibrated at the factory; if they are designed well, they will never drift. High-end CRTs have probes that automate the calibration process.

Consumer stuff has image cheats. Consumer CRTs tend to have a high color temperature. It will decode red incorrectly to cheat the image so that it looks better/right. They also may not have very good resolution (depends on size and cost).

Pro monitors (the better ones) use standard colors for red, green, and blue. For SD NTSC, the ideal colors are SMPTE C. For SD PAL work, it's EBU. For HD work (NTSC or PAL countries), the standard colors are Rec. 709 (although this is not really the current practice right now).

Of the cheap broadcast monitors, you can notice the difference between the colors on a JVC and a Sony. Consumer TVs on the other hand are just all over the place. On the other hand, this may not be a huge deal since (A) we have a high tolerance for color inaccuracy, (B) the real world isn't color accurate anyways (Google metamerism), and (C) a lot of viewers get really inaccurate color anyways (hence the joke, NTSC = never the same color). That being said, some consumer TVs have really wacky colors and you can't quite be sure that what you're looking at is correct. With broadcast monitors, you don't have the image cheats that do that.

Paul_Holmes wrote on 12/14/2006, 10:07 PM

Thanks for the replies, John and Glen. It sounds to me like having a professional monitor assures a greater degree of accuracy and is easier to set to target. I'll still keep it on my wish list.

Jay Gladwell wrote on 12/15/2006, 6:03 AM

John, I wound up getting that one, too, based yours and Grazie's glowing reviews. But I am already having trouble with it. Didn't you have a problem too begin with?

Grazie wrote on 12/15/2006, 6:06 AM

Hi Jay-MAn!!

What problems you got?

SKYPE me!! NOW!!

Grazie

Coursedesign wrote on 12/15/2006, 8:16 AM

Glenn,

Your post is great on so many levels, but why do you think that LCD backlighting doesn't vary over time? Most monitors use plain fluorescent lighting.

Even my most basic Pantone LCD monitor calibrator suggests LCD calibration every two weeks at least.

GlennChan wrote on 12/15/2006, 8:55 AM

Ecinemasys claims that their LCDs don't drift. (OTOH, I haven't verified that claim myself.)

Consumer LCDs I believe do drift.

craftech wrote on 12/15/2006, 6:43 PM

John, I wound up getting that one, too, based yours and Grazie's glowing reviews. But I am already having trouble with it. Didn't you have a problem too begin with?
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Yes I did. It wasn't properly calibrated at the factory. I brought it down to the JVC Factory Service Center in Pine Brook, New Jersey. They took care of it with no charge. What's wrong with yours Jay?

John

Grazie wrote on 12/15/2006, 11:54 PM

"What's wrong with yours Jay? "

John, already asked the question. Jay STILL hasn't replied. I even offered to do an online SKYPOE session with him too.

My JVC is still holding out very well - wouldn't do any CC without it now.

farss wrote on 12/16/2006, 12:48 AM

This monitor looks pretty damn good. Pretty much DV Rack built in.

Local guy is selling it here with V Lock battery power option, neato. One thing I'm now totally convinced of, for shooting HD something like this is vital.

Bob.

craftech wrote on 12/16/2006, 6:53 AM

"What's wrong with yours Jay? "

John, already asked the question. Jay STILL hasn't replied. I even offered to do an online SKYPOE session with him too.

My JVC is still holding out very well - wouldn't do any CC without it now.

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JVC doesn't have the best quality control in the business, but they do take care of their warranty obligations and given the lower cost and equal performance level to other overpriced brands like Sony I would still recommend the JVC brand monitor to others. The service techs at that New Jersey facility treated me very well and didn't brush me off. Still waiting on Jay.

John

craftech wrote on 12/16/2006, 6:56 AM

This monitor looks pretty damn good. Pretty much DV Rack built in.

Local guy is selling it here with V Lock battery power option, neato. One thing I'm now totally convinced of, for shooting HD something like this is vital.

Bob.
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Although I don't yet shoot in HD, I am still not sure why anything special is needed to edit it successfully. The lower priced monitors that switch automatically between 4:3 and 16:9 seem to have more than adequate resolution at 750 lines to do HD. The difference in cost is huge. Why is it vital Bob?

John

Jay Gladwell wrote on 12/16/2006, 7:46 AM

John & Grazie, sorry, I've been a tad busy--keeps me out of trouble.

The monitor's screen is darker on the left half than it is on the right. There is a problem, I don't know what it is, but different parts of the screen show pink blotches in the upper left corner and in the lower left half, the "problem half."

craftech wrote on 12/16/2006, 8:19 AM

The monitor's screen is darker on the left half than it is on the right. There is a problem, I don't know what it is, but different parts of the screen show pink blotches in the upper left corner and in the lower left half, the "problem half."
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Sounds like either the tube degause cirt is faulty or you have another appliance close to the display. Sometimes changing the position of the display will cure this. Techs often use a strong magnet to degauss the tube, but I would send it to the closest authorized factory service center ASAP. It is still under the warranty is it not?
John

Jay Gladwell wrote on 12/16/2006, 8:40 AM

Nothing close to it that would cause the problem. Yes, it's under warranty--only two months old.

Yeah, I found an authorized service center just 40 miles north of me. Taking there on Monday.

Grazie wrote on 12/16/2006, 9:15 AM

Excellent JAY! - You WILL love it . . g

farss wrote on 12/16/2006, 12:43 PM

In a word, FOCUS!

Even in SD I've had major issues trying to use a small LCD monitor shooting stage productions. Unknown to me the camera had backfocus issues and even in Spotlight the AE wasn't coping well at all.
Zoom in, set focus and all looks fine. Zoom out and well all you can see in the monitor are a few pinpricks of light, hard to tell if they're blown out or not and there's not enough visible to tell that they're way out of focus when less than 5% of the frame has any light. That's just SD, HD makes everything just so much more critical. Certainly more experience on my part and more time with the camera would have been a big help. Problem got solved by selling the camera, well not quite, it means one less SD camera available to shoot with.
One thing I did notice at the last trade show, the explosion of monitors with HD-SDI input, even the little Marshall's made to sit atop the camera now have that, there was green coax running everywhere.

Bob.

craftech wrote on 12/16/2006, 1:32 PM

Nothing close to it that would cause the problem. Yes, it's under warranty--only two months old.

Yeah, I found an authorized service center just 40 miles north of me. Taking there on Monday.
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I would be wary if it is a local repair shop and not a factory service center that only works on JVC. It might be worth the cost of shipping it out for service. They will probably pay for shipping it back to you. Factoring in the cost of gasoline it really wouldn't cost you any more.

John

craftech wrote on 12/16/2006, 1:39 PM

In a word, FOCUS!

Even in SD I've had major issues trying to use a small LCD monitor shooting stage productions. Unknown to me the camera had backfocus issues and even in Spotlight the AE wasn't coping well at all.
Zoom in, set focus and all looks fine. Zoom out and well all you can see in the monitor are a few pinpricks of light, hard to tell if they're blown out or not and there's not enough visible to tell that they're way out of focus when less than 5% of the frame has any light. That's just SD, HD makes everything just so much more critical. Certainly more experience on my part and more time with the camera would have been a big help. Problem got solved by selling the camera, well not quite, it means one less SD camera available to shoot with.
One thing I did notice at the last trade show, the explosion of monitors with HD-SDI input, even the little Marshall's made to sit atop the camera now have that, there was green coax running everywhere.
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Bob,

I am a little confused. You linked a studio editing monitor above, yet in your post you seem to be talking about a field monitor and focusing. Are you talking about dragging a 17" monitor on a shoot? When I shoot stage productions I don't know where I would put a large monitor. Focusing is a problem because of the light especially if you are trying to shoot close up. You have to know the script and the lighting directions and be informed when they make a change. Tall order. I focus half way between downstage and upstage and leave it there unless I am doing a closeup, then I use the instant focus and change it back when I am done. I also shoot all the rehearsals and performances concentrating on different parts different nights. Last show I did was an edit of 7 nights.

John

farss wrote on 12/16/2006, 2:37 PM

Am I talking about dragging a 17" monitor to a shoot?
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You bettcha, that's why the local guy is selling them kitted out with a Sony V Lock battery adaptor. Even 17" in my opinion is a tad small as it's only a 720 monitor which means it's rescaling 1080 although it does seem to do a pretty good job of it.

You have to know the script and the lighting directions and be informed when they make a change.
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Script?
What's a script?
Last stage production I attempted to shoot we didn't even get to find out the name of the performer until he was announced.
I was assured the musicians would be arranged and lit as per typical for this type of show. Ha!
Rehearsals?
The star would not even enter the stage until announced, forget sound checks, lighting checks, camera checks.

The sad thing was had I know who the performer was I would have paid for better kit out of my own pocket and thrown a lot more weight into getting it done right. That might well have been the last time he walks onto a stage. You can check him out here. Not everyones cup of tea but a fine humble man who agreed for the first time ever to perform one of his hits with a local dancer.

If anyones wonder what a "playback" singer is, well Bollywood traditionaly lays down music, dialogue and vision all at once. One side of the stage has the actors, behind the stage are the musicians, the whole mix was recorded straight to the camera, that's it, cut and print.

Bob.