Monitoring HDV

farss wrote on 2/8/2005, 2:06 AM
This isn't really a Vegas issue, more a PC / video card issue but anyway here goes.
Finally got new monster PC up and running, have 'loan' of HP 23" HD LCD monitor and plan to use it with 17" Samsung. I want to run 17" monitor for all things Vegas apart from the preview window, that'll go on the 23". However that means I'll have to run one monitor at a different res to the other.
Anyone tried this and got it to work, I seem to recall with the typical setup running a 'wide' desktop accross two monitors they have to be at the same res. Needless to say this beast is running XP, sorry if this is a dumb question but apart from anything else this is my first serious encounter with XP and the machine came setup with a panable desktop which is also very freaky!
Bob.

Comments

musman wrote on 2/8/2005, 3:46 AM
Damn good question. I was thinking of doing the same thing but pu off my decision for a while. I was reading this article which is supposed to explain it all, but I got confused and decided to go back another day. I think and hope it will answer your questions:

http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1558,1674441,00.asp
farss wrote on 2/8/2005, 4:56 AM
Thanks for the link. Reading through the article it seems I need to run in Dual View rather than stretched as I do now. So I'm just hoping that Vegas will sit nicely with that. Guess I'll find out tomorrow.
Bob.
scdragracing wrote on 2/8/2005, 10:55 AM
yup, you may have to use two video cards... i'd like to know how that works with vegas.
farss wrote on 2/8/2005, 12:28 PM
Well I just run a test on my system here and Vegas sits fine with Dual View. In fact everything now seems to work MUCH better. In stretched the popups appear in the 'middle' of the screen which is of course where the two monitors join, major PIA. Now in Dual View windows knows it should only use the LH monitor so the popups are in the middle of the LH screen, what an improvement. Also now I think I can load two instances of monitor drivers and finally calibrate them correctly.
Odd that this hasn't been discussed before, makes for a big improvement in the Vegas experience.
Bob.
Spot|DSE wrote on 2/8/2005, 12:30 PM
Farss,
Look around the forum, you'll find more on this subject (2 cards)
I've successfully run a dual monitor card and a third separate PCI card. Setting the primary monitor will instruct the popups where to open. My understanding of the new Matrox card is that you'll be able to achieve dual resolutions with them, too. There was someone who'd posted a 4 monitor setup as well. I don't remember who it was.
farss wrote on 2/8/2005, 12:50 PM
I'm NOT running two cards!
I've got one NVidia card with two DVI ports. One port connected to 17" Samsung, the other connected to HP 23".
My point is that there's TWO ways you can run this setup.
One gives you a wide or tall desktop, the other (Dual View) gives you one desktop area plus an extra area on the other side or top. I've been running dual for a long time but in extended view which is a pain.
I'm pretty certain from comments from others as well that the difference is not very clearly understood.
Bob.
Spot|DSE wrote on 2/8/2005, 1:59 PM
My bad, I didn't read deeply enough into the first post. I guess I'm used to this, because the Sony tradeshow machines are all at different resolutions/independent most of the time. But it's confusing to set up, no doubt. At trade events, you often have a 17" or even a 15" that you're viewing on, while there is either an overhead 20", or a side by side for preview only, that is 19-23" in size. I prefer working this way, but don't have the setup in the studio for it, all our monitors are matched pairs. It can be a bear to set these up correctly though, especially color matching them. Supposedly the new Matrox card will auto-correct for color, we'll see.
filmy wrote on 2/8/2005, 2:48 PM
>>>I'm pretty certain from comments from others as well that the difference is not very clearly understood.<<<

Yes - this could be true. I never thought about it this way. But on the little nVidia control doesn't it say "extended" and "dual" ? But than again if you are not running the "nView Desktop manager" I guess it wouldn't be there? But either way - I just got a clone of my desktop when I ran in "Dual" mode but now that you mention it you can set up program profiles so I can't see why you couldn't assign what goes where, even in "extendend" mode. I stopped using it because for Vegas It was just too weird - I was trying to run the preview at full screen on the "extended" desktop, which was an NTSC monitor in this case. And you can set each monitor resolution dependent - in this case the NTSC was at 640x480, and it did not affect the main PC monitor. But I didn't like it that much so I just went back to firewire out via my SR-VS30
Coursedesign wrote on 2/9/2005, 11:09 AM
Reading through this thread on "monitoring HDV", I'm missing information on how to actually monitor HDV through anything other than Firewire to 480i NTSC.

Is there any way in Vegas to see the video preview on a full resolution correct colorspace high definition monitor?

Any statement on Vegas 6 for this?

It really would seem to be a reasonable request, as I don't see any other alternative than exporting the footage to another application that has real video monitor (as opposed to computer screen) preview of HDV/HD.

QuickTime and Combustion etc. can output to a Decklink card just fine, but this is extra work...
farss wrote on 2/9/2005, 1:14 PM
I'm running the 23" HP LCD off the PC, colorspace is correct thanks to the CF codec conversion. To run a true HD CRT though is another issue entirely, those things cost and cost again. Cheapest option we've been given is a 2K res projector for $35K. We have a PVM 14 that'll accept a HD component feed but it's only good for 800 line resolution and for me is way too small to get a good look at what you're doing.
Problem I've been warned about with true HD CRTs is having spent all that money you then need to keep the thing calibrated, an almost daily chore if you move them.
Bob.
Coursedesign wrote on 2/9/2005, 1:34 PM
When you use the 23" HP LCD to evaluate the image, can you evaluate at least brightness and contrast in a way that will be predictable when creating output?

By predictable I mean that it could be "a tad too dark" say, but I would know that this would mean the output would be correct.

Do you know what gamma you are seeing the video at?

What about color correction? Is this possible in a predictable way using the above definition?

Have you compared this with using an ITU709 NTSC SD monitor via Firewire?

I thought I had seen true 1080 line Sony pro CRT monitors for $5K, and their Luma pro LCD video monitors for less.
filmy wrote on 2/9/2005, 4:46 PM
>>Is there any way in Vegas to see the video preview on a full resolution correct colorspace high definition monitor?<<

here is an interesting thing to me - if you have the nVidia card and drivers and so on you can right click on an AVI file in windows explorer and there will be a "play out" (or the like) option. If you click on that it automaticly sends the full screen video out to your "other" monitor...no media player interface at all. But in Vegas, which supposedly uses the same "interface" as windows explorer - there is no such option. So my concept is this - if you had the HD option on an Nvidia card for the second monitor you could view the output on a HD monitor/TV. But from within Vegas - Doesn't seem to be an option. At least not that I have figured out. (Not just HD, but any file. I can get the preview window, as a whole, out but not the "raw" footage only - which is what you are talking about and what can happen from windows explorer.)
Coursedesign wrote on 2/9/2005, 6:32 PM
Now that is an interesting thought.

Anybody know, perhaps BJ_M?, if the Win Explorer output is video OK?
farss wrote on 2/9/2005, 6:41 PM
Just to answer your previous question, yes. Although this footage was shot under extreme conditions in terms of lighting, maybe I'm the odd man out but I always go by the scopes rather than a monitor.
Before I could give a decent answer I need some 'normal' footage.
A stage lit at .5 lux with the talent walking around with a candle makes it a bit hard to judge anything. As for color balance, well apart from the scene lit by candles, the rest of it there's almost no white anywhere on the stage, all lighting is heavily gelled etc.
Bob.
djamm wrote on 2/16/2005, 11:26 AM
If I bought a Sony HDV cam which has component out could I not preview firewire through the camera?
epirb wrote on 2/16/2005, 11:53 AM
You cannot preview HDV out thru the firewire. It is not recognized as a "camera" per se' when the output is set at HDV. You can use it as a passthru for DV just like you would any other cam , but you must set the firewire out to DV.
I have not tried it the other way if that is what you are impliying, meaning using the firewire out into the cam then component out of the cam to a HD monitor. But I dont think so, mainly because as I mentioned above that when the cam is in the HDV mode the firewire doesnt seem to be recognized as cam by Vegas.
I will test when I get home tonight to be certain, unless Bob allready knows the answer and posts it before I get home. He's got more expirience than me. :)
farss wrote on 2/16/2005, 1:02 PM
Will not work,
Vegas doesn't see a HDV device as it uses different protocols. You can hook a HD monitor to the component outputs of the camera to monitor whats on your tape and most likely you'll see output there during PTT but you have to use the CF HD utility or other things to do that.
You also need to be aware that when in HDV mode the camera outputs video in the 709 color space.
Bob.
Hulk wrote on 2/16/2005, 2:36 PM
There is no way to get the HDV stream out to the camera via Firewire for preview from the NLE because that would require a real time encode of the timeline to an MPEG-2 TS. There's just no way that's going to happen.

Here are the best options as I see them:

1. Use a dual head DVI video card and an HD monitor with a DVI connector. Or get a DVI to component adapter to drive a component input HD monitor from the second output head. Of course there are cards like MYHD that will do this as well.

2. Use a second computer monitor, sit the preview window in it and set up a "calibration" FX chain so that the preview window is calibrated. This way when you're not editing in Vegas you won't have to continually reset display settings on that second monitor. Just remember to remove or bypass the FX chain in the preview window upon exporting the project!

I personally like option #2 because the second monitor is used for all computer tasks not just editing. Further, more and more HDV productions will be viewed on LCD or Plasma displays so if you are previewing on an LCD and the viewer is viewing on an LCD you'll have a good idea of what the viewer will see. I find it hard to make LCD's preview translate to SD CRT TV displays, but in the HDV case the LCD is much closer is colorspace and resolution to the audience's display device. Almost exactly if they are using LCD and very close for Plasma.

The trick is to find an LCD that does a really good job with video moreso than text. That would mean accurate color reproduction and fast enough to do 30fps. You could also go for a widescreen display so it fits the format. The primary monitor could be purchased for it's abilty to do a great job with text, the secondary with video. The idea is to tailor the displays for your workflow, that's just an example.

Just some ideas.

- Mark