>>They say that DVD+RW works in virtually ALL, I repeat, ALL set-top DVD players. >>True, or not true?

Well, +RW will not work in all set top players. Neither will any of the other writable formats. Of everything that you can burn tonight, -R is will play in the most players. +RW is second and -RW is third.

The format of the +RW is closer to the format of the 'pressed' DVD that set top players like to see. The problem with the +RW is that the reflectivity is just under what is needed for some of the older players. Here is where it gets interesting and speculative. +RW and -RW are both rewritable formats. Some of that functionality eats up some of the reflectivity. -RW's (Rewritable) have a lower compatibility than -R's(Write Once) for that reason. +RW's have a higher compatibilty success than -RW's. It is believed that when the +R (Write Once) discs are available, that their higher reflectivity along with the better compatibility of the +RW format will result in the 'more' compatible disc that everyone seeks. Those +R discs will hit the store any day now. They were scheduled for Feb 20, although no one can be quite sure since these are a brand new product. I know Philips has been working hard on them.

Bottom line, FORMAT WARS are not over. You might want to wait about 30 days and see what the result of the +R discs is. Indications are that the discs will be cheaper than -R within about 6 months. +RW is already cheaper than -RW. Drive prices have also been bouncing around. The +RW's hit the market at $599 and were around $480's within 60 days. +RW discs started at $15 and are now around $11 on sale. BTW, This is all since September. It will take more than 30-60 days for format wars to end, but you will atleast know more about compatability. At least with +R there will be a fair comparision.

One sidenote to consider, there are DVD replicators who will accept a DVD-R as media for replication of DVD5's. I have not found any that are ready for DVD+RW yet. That is not a factor for me because the cost of a DVD-R burner verses the cost of DLT tape output would simply be a part of the project. Anything bigger than DVD5 still has to go to DLT anyway.

I personally have the +RW drive and I am thrilled with it. It burns DVD faster and masteres them on the fly. That is a big deal when you are talking a large project. I personally have the Philips. Most all of the others are made by Ricoh as OEM. The Philips is not. I found the quality of the Philips drive to be superior. The firmware will not have to be updated for +R, it's in it. The others are worried about how they are going to update their firmware to do +R. A side effect of my Philips +RW drive was only visable when I made CD-R VCD's. By burning the VCD at 8X's speed on the Philips Drive, the VCD's were amazingly better than any other I have burned. The motion artifacts were almost eliminated from all but the most complicated scenes. They looked like I had bumped the bitrate to about 1800K instead of 1150K. That came from the accuracy of the burn. I didn't realize what a difference the burner would make.

I hope all that discussion is of help to you. Unless you HAVE to burn a DVD today, sit tight for a month or so and you will have a better answer. If you JUST can't WAIT, roll the dice and pick one. You will have fun and I am sure you will like which ever one you choose. They are a lot of fun and both -RW/-R and +RW drives are good products.

Keith

What Phillips drive do you have? What's the model number?

Thanks!

Asaf

>> What Phillips drive do you have? What's the model number?

DVDRW208/17 That is the internal IDE DVD+RW drive. It writes, DVD+RW, CD-R, CD-RW and reads everything else.

K

I got a question... I know DVD burning will be common in the future and that prices for both drives and media are starting to come down. The issue that is really holding me back is burning speed. I remember I jumped on the CD burner bandwagon very early in the game and worked through 2X, 4X, 8X and now 16X speeds. I don't really want to play that game again with DVD burners.

So, right now

a) what is the FASTEST DVD burner anyone has seen (1X 2X...)?

b) how long is it taking to burn a full DVD disc?

c) how about the coaster (failure) rate?

I don't mind having a coaster once in awhile for cheap CD media, but I would hate to blow $10-20 a pop for a ruined DVD disc.

TIA for input.

Well it's 2X for DVD-R right now. This message is for kkolbo: I'm a little concerned that the DVD logo does not appear on the drive. People tell me that actually, DVD-RW is more compatible than +RW. I'm going crazy! Who is telling the truth?

Thanks guys!

:)

ab

According to everything I have read (or tested), DVD-R seems to playback in every DVD player.

www.vcd.help has a compatibilities list that is by most accounts accurate.

a) what is the FASTEST DVD burner anyone has seen (1X 2X...)?

2.5 for a DVD+RW. Single for a -R


b) how long is it taking to burn a full DVD disc?

The actual burn on a 4.7 gig DVD with a 2.5 drive is about 20 minutes but with all the prep and stuff it does I figure about 35. That is the +RW. The other drives are considerabley slower.


c) how about the coaster (failure) rate?

I have yet to have a coaster with the Philips drive. Not even a CD-R coaster.

K

The DVD logo that you are reffering to is owned by the DVD Forum. The +RW format is competing with the drive specs put out by the DVD Forum. I would never expect the Forum to liscence the logo to a competitor.

Most of the folks that are telling you that -RW is more compatible than the +RW are actually talking about burning a -R disc. The -R will work on more than the +RW and many more than the -RW.

For a while I don't think that we will know the 'correct' answer. I can tell you that both formats work well and that the Philips hardware is top notch.

I do not reccommend the average person buy their DVD burner just yet. They are expense. The format choice is still shaping up with the DVD Forum about to release and support yet another rewritable format. The authoring software is still more than double the cost of the hardware, but it is starting to fall. Good MPEG2 encoding is still a hardware solution.

Anyone who jumps into the game right now should plan on his money being short term. It is like buying a home BETAMAX VCR. You may have bought the best choice but you paid a fortune for it and we don't know yet how long it will be usable. If you want to buy now, you are buying to enjoy NOW.

This message is for kkolbo:

I spoke today with a representative from Philips and I received some bad news. They said that the DVD+R media was just released in Europe. People bought the DVD+R media, inserted it into their Philips drive which already has the +R in it, and for some reason, the drive could not write to the disk! S--t!!

I am very worried about this. They told me that the DVD+RW alliance will introduce new drives that will support the +R.

What the hell am I suppose to do with this new information? Or was he just talking crap?

I spoke today with a representative from Philips and I received some bad news. They said that the DVD+R media was just released in Europe. People bought the DVD+R media, inserted it into their Philips drive which already has the +R in it, and for some reason, the drive could not write to the disk! S--t!!


*** That is very possibly true. I can not confirm it at the moment. I do not find this a panic problem. If it does not write to it, then I will give Philips the chance to look at the problem. They may issue a solve for it or they might not. I know that the HP's will NOT write to the +R's. The +RW's work well for me or I would not have made the purchase to begin with. I am sure that a drive that write both will be out soon. This is all part of NEW tech. This format is only a couple of months old. There will be changes and hicups.

I am very worried about this. They told me that the DVD+RW alliance will introduce new drives that will support the +R.

*** Are you desperate to buy today? If so, what is the 'exact' application? Right now there is no universal solution. If you are this worried right now than you are not ready to be playing with emerging technology. As I said earlier and I hope folks understand this, DVD recording for consumer application is still a few months away from being a known bet. Consumer level recording will never equal the 'pressed" DVD, but it will be a lot more stable in a few months. The only 'known' quantity right now for consumer level recoding is the AO3. You have to purchased based on a specific application right now and not expect it to be good for something else later. This time will pass soon.


What the hell am I suppose to do with this new information? Or was he just talking crap?

*** Take a breath and wait to see or look at your specific application and purchase what you need to use today. Remember that nothing is 100% compatable. Heck a year and half ago, nothing was compatable.

Keith

I tend to agree with kkolbo with regards to any Recordable DVD format. I personally have heard good things about most of the formats and Drives. Usually an early adopter myself (I have had "cd recorders"/burners and Dolby AC-3 "Digital" a whole lot longer than most people I know) I am actually gonna wait on this one to see what finally shakes down as the winning format. On another thread posted it was mentioned that DVD-R was compatible with most set top players, suprisingly the two models I own (second generation Toshiba and last years Philips model) will not play DVD-R - according to the reports I've read on VCDHelp and Pinnacle Systems sites. Electronic Muscician actually did a nice article on all of the DVD recordable formats (based on info available at the time) - seemed to me that DVD+RW has the best chance of winning this format war. We'll have to wait a bit longer and see, I suppose.

CAPNDigital

Dave,

> According to everything I have read (or tested), DVD-R seems to playback in every DVD player. www.vcd.help has a compatibilities list that is by most accounts accurate. <

I know it was several months ago (February) when you made that statement, and there is a good chance that by now you are fully aware of its inaccuracy, but in case you aren't, I would like to set the record straight now, on a better-late-than-never basis. And, since you are a Sonic Foundry person, I would feel uneasy if you were misinformed on any subject that could impact our future tools. So, please forgive my "pickiness."

The only DVD format that plays in every DVD player is the commercially manufactured DVD format, which is currently beyond the capabilities of any consumer grade DVD burner. For that reason, those of us who wish to burn DVDs are faced with a conundrum: regardless of which format we choose to burn in, a lot of the "set top" DVD players out there won't be able to play our DVDs. For example, going to that list right now, I see that it contains 989 DVD players (that is up 20 players from a couple of days ago.) Now, if I search the list for those players that can play DVD-R I get a list of 419 players that can play DVD-R. In other words, only about 42 percent of the players in the list can play DVD-R. A search for DVD+R yields 81 players (about 8 percent) and a search for DVD+RW yields 222 players (about 22 percent). A search for DVD-RW finds 228 players (about 23 percent). Interestingly, a search for the miniDVD format yields 109 players -- only about 11 percent, but as it happens both I and my son have one of them (we both have Daewoo DVG-5000Ns), which is one reason why I have an interest in the miniDVD format. As you mentioned, you can do DVD player searches at:

http://www.vcdhelp.com/dvdplayers.php

The sad thing is that, even if you pick the "most popular" DVD-R format, there is only about a 42% chance that a set top player chosen at random will be able to play your disc. Or, stated differently, on average less than half of your friends can play your discs regardless of what format you pick.

-- Burton --

I have been selling "home Brew" DVD-R for many months now to many different customers and have yet for anyone of them to say it would not play on their settop DVD.

Note that it is true that in doing a search that one finds

"A search for DVD+R yields 81 players (about 8 percent)"

But this is misleading since it is not that the DVD+R disks have been tested in other players and found to be not compatible. It is just that +R disks are too new to have been tested in as many players...
So...Time will tell..

In the mean time while everyone is "waiting to see what happens" I am happily burning +RW and +R disks that totally meet my needs. (But be careful since my needs may not match yours!)

I see Sony has started to install DVD-R type burners in its latest machines. This is interesting since they were part of the breakaway group that subscribed to the +R/RW standard. So, while they have a foot in both camps, thanks to their manufacture of +R/RW aftermarket devices, they have opted for the -R/RW standard in their own machines.

This, from the people who not only brought you Pearl Harbour, but also Betamax...

The lesson here is that the 'best' option will not necessarily win. Although just who will win God only knows: I think we're still at the goat slaughtering, entrail studying stage.

-Pete

(I've gone for Pioneer -R/RW, should that happy fact encourage you at all. <g> )

DV magazine has an article in the current issue (July 2002) regarding compatibility of the different DVD formats. Unfortunately, they don't make all their articles available online, so you'll have to pick up a copy at a bookstore.

- vin

I haven't seen the DV Magazine article yet, but I recall that back around Christmas 2001 an article in PC World said that their tests showed 90% compatibility for DVD-R and about 75% compatibility for DVD-RW and DVD+RW. Problem was that the compatibility lists for DVD-RW and DVD+RW were different. Back then they didn't have DVD+R to test, but I have heard that it's about the same a DVD-R.

I bought a Pioneer DVR-A04 last month and am very pleased with the unit, aside from the odd quirk of having to burn a 20-minute lead-out if one is only burning a small data file.