>>1) Is the Echo Layla 24 indeed a good choice for compatibility with Vegas 4 (and 5?)? Any other recommendations?
2) Can the Layla's be chained together for more tracks? 16, 24, etc.
3) Setting aside my Vegas bias, I have to honestly ask: for compatibility/credibility with other studios, why should I pick Vegas over ProTools LE? I'm thinking of scenarios like starting a project here and finishing it in a larger studio.<<

I'll reply to these:

1) Absolutely! A quick review of the archives will confirm that the Echo cards are extremely compatible and stable with Sony apps.

2) Yes you can run multiple Laylas (and combinations of Echo cards).

3) The ONLY reason I would use ProTools LE in a project studio would be if I or my clients were planning on transferring projects to a larger Protools studio for mixing. Other than that, there are better options. Actually Protools LE really shouldn't be considered "Protools" at all. Except for a certain familar interface and the file format, it's not even close to what Protools is really about. Frankly I think its more of a marketing gimmick than anything else (which seems to be working pretty well for Digidesign).

drbam

"I've avoided ProTools because I haven't really needed to record a lot of tracks at once. I do mostly voiceovers, but I am starting to record more music and am considering recording bands."

Doesn't make a difference, that's the beauty of Vegas, I use it for both. You can use it to record 1 track at a time or 45, makes no difference.

"I use Vegas 4.0 and Sound Forge for my audio stuff, and Vegas for video editing too. I'm rather loyal to Vegas and would like to see if I can do the same stuff with it as my buddy does with ProTools. At this point, that would mainly be recording 8 tracks at a time."

"Not a problem, you just need to get an audio interface that has 8 inputs, the Layla is a good choice. That's what's nice about Vegas, you're only limited by your hardware, not the software."


"1) Is the Echo Layla 24 indeed a good choice for compatibility with Vegas 4 (and 5?)? Any other recommendations?"

Absolutely. Another good point about the Echo stuff is that although they make some good ASIO drivers, ASIO in itself has problems sharing when running multiple apps. The Echo products develeped their own Wave compatible driver model called "purewave", which rivals in comparison to ASIO. Other choices I would check into would be the RME cards. I've only heard of 1 person having problems with an RME card back in Vegas 3 days. www.RME-audio.com

"2) Can the Layla's be chained together for more tracks? 16, 24, etc."
Absolutely. I'm not running the Layla's, but am running dual Gina's and they work great together.

"3) Setting aside my Vegas bias, I have to honestly ask: for compatibility/credibility with other studios, why should I pick Vegas over ProTools LE? I'm thinking of scenarios like starting a project here and finishing it in a larger studio."
You would actually probably be better sticking to Vegas than LE. It you want to transport sessions from Vegas to Protools, look into getting a program called "EDLconvert". Vegas can save as an EDL file, then you use EDL convert, to convert that too an OMS session, which can directly be opened in Vegas(oops edit meant: Protools), and vice-versa.

"4) How do you deal with people that say, "Vegas? What's that? Don't you have ProTools?" It seems that ProTools = Credibility to some folks. Yes, I know the real proof is "in the grooves", but some people just can't seem to get past the brand name."

The only people who have sad that to me, are the people that have never done work with me before, and if they're really that shallow and narrow minded, I probably won't want to work with them anyways. Narrow minded people, tend to make very uncreative artist and use a Protools excuse like that to make up for their own lack of talent. "Yeah...my stuff didn't sound phat, because that engineer wasn't using da Protools..." Yep, that's a good one, as every other artists material goes out the door sounding professional. :-)

"BTW, if there are any Vegas users in Southwest Michigan, I would be interested in getting together...heck, maybe we can form a users group."

How far "S/W" you talking? I'm a South/East Michigan guy, but work over on the South/West part....well Farmington Hills, really not that far West.

Vegas 4 / Soundforge 6 user here.

I also recommend the Aardvark Q10 rack unit interface, it's superb.
http://www.aardvarkaudio.com/aasd-v1/index.html
Full support for ASIO, 24/96, 8 1/4" inputs, 8 XLR inputs, 4 ¼" TRS Inserts, Phantom power, Full midi, headphone out, and much much more.

I do lots of multi tracking. I've successfully and smoothly recorded 54 audio tracks. I admit my P4 2.6ghz, 2gb RAM, help too but...

As for the Vegas Vs. ProTools... I agree with the opinion that ProTools LE is NOT ProTools. Not even close. I f its between LE and Vegas, its Vegas handsdown. The full ProTools however kicks Vegas' ass and should for the price.

Lastly, pertaining to people the reputations of ProTools and Vegas; I live in LA where ProTools is considered God and Vegas is indeed considered the amatuers app. But LA sucks and people are stupid, so screw em and use what gets the job done. I like Vegas a lot.

Wow! Thanks for the input and recommendations everyone. Further googling (yes, "google" is a verb AND a noun now) yielded excellent reviews on both the Echo Layla 24 and the Aardvark Q10. The RME stuff looked good too. At this point, I think I'm leaning towards the Layla.

Thanks too for the reality check regarding PT vs. Vegas. Great stuff!

Rednroll - I'm in the Kalamazoo/Battle Creek area. FWIW, Creative Cow has a Detroit users group listed. It's not Vegas specific, but there might be some Vegas users there.

I'm in the Kalamazoo/Battle Creek area. FWIW, Creative Cow has a Detroit users group listed. It's not Vegas specific, but there might be some Vegas users there.

Close, but no cigar-- I'm in Toledo.
And I do mostly video work... and I've certainly noticed this bizarre video users vs. audio users vibe on this board!

David.

I use vegas every day, recording bands in a for profit music recording studio. My system has 52 ins and outs. I have yet to record more than about 28 tracks at a time, but dont really need to. I have problems and bugs and sillyness all day long, but I am pushing the HELL out of my systems.

8 Tracks at a time? Fret not, that wont even burp a decent system. Unless the playback count is pretty high or you have reached vegas' edit limit, even 16 tracks at a time wont tax a p3 700.

I use RME stuff, and I have a lot of problems with it, but then again I have problems with any hardware, and the RME is the best configured setup to suit my needs, by far

I run into the PT stuff all the time. Tell them to go to any pro industry forum and count the a list engineers/producers who like it and who dont. Sometimes even gear salsemen will try and force some software down your throat. it kookoo

Next time a customer asks which software you are running and starts the "all the pros have pt" ask them if they got nike socks with the balls hanging off the back. " Everyone knows you cant play guitar without nike socks man!"

"hey what kind of guitar do you have?" " Oh everyone knows if the strap doesnt have glitter it will have no sustain"

"Dude, you dont have any band stickers on your kick, your gonna have a hard time staying in rhythm"

If a band is going to START and FINISH a project with you, they have no business telling you what app to run. Its retarded.

Do you walk up to your machinists' lathe when he is boring your 360 block 60 over and say " no man, here, use this file instead"

Why would you intentionally cripple your engineer, worry about playing your guitar dammit, and oh, in this "prep and research" you are doing so thoroughly when checking ut a studio, how about getting your !@#$ guitar intonated. Its on every other web page on the friggin net on how to do it.

And hey, stupid ass drummer, how about you pull your heads and make sure all the screws holding your lugs on are tight? Too hard for you??? Oh nice, you still got the FACTORY bottom heads on all your toms? Yes the choice of software is soooo much more important than worrying about whther or not the drums are still headed with glorified saran wrap. And stop flim flamming the god damn toms! How about playing WITH the music instead of against it all tool style?

And mr singer, ahhh I love you.....WHATS WITH ALL THE STUPID INAPPROPRIATE VIBRATO LATELY???? Do you need slaps? Yes, I KNOW there is a thing called autotune, the thing is YOU SHOULDNT...go sing it right!!! Ill tune it if I have to but you cant polish a turd

ok sorry, ranting

Any of the things a band needs to do to prepare, and certainly doesnt nowadays, is WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY more important than whether or not you are recording on the official software of the squash it flat and autotune it to death crowd

Don't sweat the Vegas vs. ProTools arguments. My simple answer is always: efficiency.
I mix audio in a high-end film/video post facility with clients sitting over my shoulder. (No, we don't use Vegas for video post. We have multi $100K systems for that.) After seeing what I can accomplish in Vegas/SF in the way of mixing, noise reduction, sound design, etc. in a given amount of time, my clients regularly bring me sessions that were tracked in ProTools for me to mix in Vegas.
If you've used both systems, you have to give respect to what PT can do, but there simply is no faster, more efficient mixing interface than Vegas (even without control surfaces, grrr.) You'll seldom be pulling down nested menus or performing multiple key/mouse contortions to get where you want to be. Stick with Vegas, get good plug-ins and LEARN. I have confidence in Sony to take this app to even better places.

atom are you pulling in with AV COnvert pro? Or EDL Convert Pro or something else?

Hey Pipe. I always dig your posts. Learned a lot from ya.
I don't use any import utility generally. Haven't really looked into them. And I'll attribute that to the fact that I'm not doing straight music mixes. For post production I'm not dealing with a lot of punches, multiple takes, etc. With what I'm usually working with, (5-8 tracks of location audio plus multiple tracks of ambience, sound fx, music stems) I don't want any of their routing, EQ, automation, etc. I ask my client to provide me raw AIFFs of each track from the session from, say, SMPTE 00:00:00:00 to 00:00:30:00. I line them up, add what I need and go. In the post-production world, it's great to have a client to interface with the other studios so I don't have to deal with attitudes or ignorance about what I need.
In the few cases where I could only get OMFs I've had reasonable success in importing them in either Nuendo or Logic, then rendering individual tracks after I strip off anything they've added. I'll do this prior to my clients coming in so I can finish totally in Vegas. It sounds like a lot of effort, but I've gotta tell you, in a situation where clients are constantly checking their watches, the speed of the interface impresses them. Vegas really makes me look good.
What are your experiences with the EDL import programs? If it seems worthwhile to me, I'll check them out.

I havent really used any converters yet either. Ive rendered out waves from start to finish so that people could take their projects home, but thats about it. I do have one coming up I gotta do the drums for that needs to go to a PT studio to mix, to get this "get the other studio's name on the album for some prestige." Never mind that the guy mixing at said studio for them is an intern who just got out of the conservatory of music less than a year ago :)

its a wonderful world

If I'm off course just ignore me....

But you asked if using more than one layla card would allow you to record "more tracks". I just wanted to make sure you understood that you can deal with as many tracks as your computer can handle... but you only need as many inputs on the card as you plan on recording at the same time. If you just are building from one track voiceovers, it probably will be a long time before you need to record more than a few tracks simultaneously... your audiophile may be all you need in that case - you get four tracks right there....

todd

Yep, for voiceover work, the Audiophile 2496 has been superb. I'm at the point where I'm ready to record more tracks at once...probably no more than 8 to start with. Mostly live band stuff. The most tracks I've put together with my current soundcard is 24...one track at a time! :)

Thanks for clarifying that though, tbobpage. I can see how someone reading this thread later might wonder. To be clear, I am planning to start recording more tracks at a time, that is, more than just voiceovers.

Update: I just got home with my Echo Layla 24 and am about to install it. I actually need to do some recording tonight too. Based on the feedback in this forum, I am looking forward to a good experience with it. :)

Well...crap.

I've been working on installing the Layla 24 since my last post with no luck. I've tried multiple PCI slots, the newest drivers, manually installing the drivers, changing IRQ's, and just so I could rule out incompatibilty with other stuff, I scratch loaded Windows XP and fully service packed it before installing the card again. Still no luck. All this on a Compaq Evo 2.0 GHz Intel P4 CPU, Intel chipset, and 1 GB of RAM. Windows sees it, but will not recognize it as a valid device. I know the PCI slots are good because other devices work fine in them.

I really think I have a bad piece of hardware, and it's not my PC. Any ideas before I take this back, pay another $50, and bring home the Q10 with all those mic pre's?

You may have a defective unit - is it new? The Echo cards are unquestionably the easiest "install and get to work" units I've encountered or ever even heard about. You do know to ignore the Windows warning window that comes up when it first recognizes a new device? You installed the latest Echo drivers?

drbam

Agreed. I am convinced the PCI card was bad. I'm a network guy by day, voiceover by night. I pulled every trick I could think of to get the Layla working, including ignoring the Windows warning and installing the latest downloaded drivers (via both installshield and manually) on a freshly installed and patched WIndows XP all Intel box. Unfortunately, that was the last Layla they had at the store. However...

I did a LOT of reading on the Q10 and ended up bring one home. Literally, I had it physically installed and running in 5 minutes. Not a single problem...so far. :) I've been playing with it for a couple of hours now and am satisfied it will serve the purpose well.

I would not hesitate to buy the Layla again, but I might wait to see if a firewire version of it comes out. I think I just got a defective unit.

Thanks a ton to everyone for their input and help with this. I hope I can be as helpful someday as you folks have been in this thread. Now I'm off to try some tracking with Vegas!

Glad to hear you're up and recording and too bad about the Layla card. A rare thing but it happens. About 4 yrs ago I had a problematic pci card on one of my original Layla 20's (random noise on 2 outputs) and Echo replaced both the breakout box and the pci card immediately. Their support has been first rate. Hopefully you'll find the Q10 to be a satisfying investment.

drbam

I'm just curious if you guys are recording these 24 - 48 - 56 tracks at once?

Or are you saying you MIX this many tracks at once?

There is a big difference in the two. Please clearify, are you meaning you RECORD or MIX this many tracks with VEGAS and the mentioned hardware?

I'm just finding it hard to picture any situation that would call for this many tracks to be recorded simultaneously. Maybe recording a really big orchestra. The max I can think of would be to mic and record a drum kit. (@ 6 mics)

I'm finding it even harder to believe that VEGAS or even ProTools can record this many tracks at once. Please someone tell me I'm wrong. If this is the case I will be trading in the Echo for something a little more hefty.

I record 12 tracks simultaneously with no problems at 24 bits/44.1kHz. (recording rock bands live via direct outs from the channels on the FOH mixer) I know I'm not stressing the hard drive at all, it should support throughput of totally unreasonable numbers of simultaneous tracks (100+) One wonders whether you'd have problems with the PCI bus at 100 tracks, but 24 is certainly not a big stretch at all, and 48-56 should be doable. Using something like a MOTU 24I/O which allows up to four units to be cascaded, offers 96 simultaneous tracks.

96 * 24 * 44100 = 101606400 bits/sec = 101.6 mbits/sec = roughly 12.7 megabytes a second. That's without lots of nitpicky little framing and parity bits, what have you...

Anyway, that's less than 1/4 of the bandwidth of the Firewire bus that the MOTU uses.

You're going to have to be careful of your configuration and OS tweaks, but you can run LOTS of tracks on a computer...and it doesn't take Protools to do it.

My $0.02

Scott

Just read your "rant" on this post, sorry its late. I just wanted to say, you made my day, thats some funny stuff. May I use some of your material?

sure, but this is a lot more diplomatic

http://www.itn.is/~ofheyrn/frod.htm