I agree with Tor. Most bands don't have the money to pay someone to make a video. They will usually use friends or their own resources. Even the large bands usually rely on the Record Label to pay for production costs.

If you want to do this as a hobby, you will do fine.

Contact some of the bands you are interested in and query them on how much they can and would spend on a video. That will answer most of your questions.

Dave T2

It has to be a labor of love my friend, I have a first class recording studio and I can't even get musicians to pay $55/hour for that - they always have some excuse - which is why I demand a down payment before they start or payment after every session – BUT musicians are at least used to recording costs. As for my video costs here is what I charge: $75 to Record and transfer a live show from DV to DVD-R and DVD+R - I must have a direct feed from the board. This cost breaks down to about $12.60/hour - here's how I figure it.

One hour to record the band - 1 set, nothing fancy, single camera, single angle (sometimes I play with the angle, but because I am getting a direct line from the board, I need to remain pretty stationary), so I call this 1 hour and all the free beer I can drink - I don't drink much.

Then it takes 1 hour to transfer - because I don't do anything except transfer there is no real charge. Next it takes 1-2 hours to edit - say 2 hr generally and 6 hours to generate the MPEG - again no charge for MPEG generation. Next it takes about 2 hours to author the DVD and burn labels - so let me see - so far we have 1hr + 2hrs + 2 hrs = 5 hours + the cost of the DVD media at $6 a pop = 2(DVD+R & DVD-R) * 6 = $12 and that is a real rough video.

So $75/5hrs = $15/hour factor in the $12 media cost spread over each hour is: $12/5hrs = $2.40/hr
hence
$15 - $2.40 = $12.60 / hour

And they bitch at $75 - If they want extra videos I charge them $25 if they do it within a two week time frame (I keep stuff on my disks for two weeks) after that it goes up to $50 as I have to reload in the session. They actually come back for more, can't copy a DVD like you can a CD yet - at least they haven't figured out how :-).

I have never had any band ask me to do a full up production: 3 cameras, remote mixer, splitter from the board to our own board to remix to video - hours and hours of editing, so it would look like Van Halen at the Boston Gardens I figure that would cost a ton-o-cash and hell they balk at $75!

Regards,
Brad

Hey Blund

"can't copy a DVD like you can a CD yet - at least they haven't figured out how :-)"

..actually...they have! A program called DVDXCOPY is now available to "back up" your commercial DVDs and basically copy any DVD. I have it...it works well!

Cheers

Chris

I would suggest that if you are having troubles determining price then you are not quite ready to enter the market. I mean the professional market as a whole as well as the specific market you are targeting. Yes, asking on a forum like this can be a step in the process, but let me explain what 'I' think is a basic business process for entering a market. Again, this is the gospel according to me and many folks have been wildly successful just jumping in a going for it, so take me with a grain of salt and a beer. OK a margarita would be better with the salt :) Maybe and asprin might help too.


My first step is to define what the deliverables are. 'X' number of 'X' in terms of length of product, service hours, formats etc. You will need that when you market your service anyway so you might as well determine what the product is and what they can expect. Also determine some upsale extras as well. Well defined expectations result in happier clients.

Next, you determine what your costs are to create that set of deliverables. Do not fool yourself by just looking at hard costs. Your time is worth more than you think and it has to be or you will not survive long. Eating is a good thing! Taxes take a much bigger bite out a self-employed salary than an employed slave. Also don't forget to factor in some overhead/depreciation. You have to start stocking away money for the next upgrade of Vegas when SoFo has one. That computer or camera that you use will need upgrading or replacement as well. The bulb in your light has to be replaced as well.

Don't make the mistake of the statement "well if I am not doing anything, then I am making nothing, so anything I get is good." You can only do that with 'one off' projects. If you are offerring a rate card service or product you can NOT do that. What happens if the product takes off and you get a gazillion orders? You can not fill all of them at a near loss margin. Raising the price is hard to do quickly. Instead consider this ... Set you price/cost at a reasonable margin. Go into the market with a GRAND OPENING or NEW PRODUCT special price, listing the normal regular price for comparision. That way you have primed them for the rate increase, but are still lowballing it at first. See my dreels.com site for an example of me doing exactly this.

Now add a profit to it. This gives you an idea of where the price HAS to be as a minimum. Now instead of just looking for what is being charged, you are asking the question, will the market pay that much? If the answer to that is NO, then move on. If it is YES, then you look to see how much more they might pay and what extra you can offer them at a higher price point and with a better margin. That then sets your prices.

How do you find out the market? That varies. Nothing beats pounding the streets and talking to folks in a sales situation. That is why it is important that you know your costs and minimum prices first. What happens if you are exploring/fishing to see what the market will pay and someone says "I love it and I want it now"? You have to snag that client now. You are ready to do so. Make him an offer he can't refuse. Use your minimum price, which is in your head and never exposed, and then tell him it is a first time deal and it includes you being able to use their final product as your sample. You get feedback and a sample, and everyone goes away happy.


Polling others in the market can help, but be careful about setting your prices that way. They may give a clue on what the market will pay, but especially now days we are all in different places with very different client demographics.

All that said, the client base (underground bands) you are looking at is notorious for not paying because they don't have any money! They can be fun to do though and they make great samples when you do them as 'pro-bono' work. I am just afraid that if you do your homeowrk and determine a REAL cost, you will find the market is not there. I hope I am dead wrong. Either way it might be fun to do one as a 'one off' for fun and laughs and see what you get.

Best of luck!

points well taken. thanks for the replies.

i've been around music for a number of years, so i'm aware of the issues. this is just a project, not a career move. i want to make videos regardless of the money, but not give away the service. i'm thinking $99 cheapo deal and something more for locations/editing/tricks (possibly packaged with a multitrack audio session thru existing studios).

i'm planning to test the market. guess it comes down to what bands/labels are capable of paying and who likes my style. i already make video art and street videos. a fair price for a semi-professional edited video delivered on dvd master would be something around $500 (in the broke musician market), but we'll see who is willing to pay that.

Right I have it as well, what I meant was "Musicians (on the average) haven't figured it out nor do they have DVD burners - yet" :-)

Brad

Hi All,
I'm new to this forum, (not new to producing audio/video) and I just wanted to say that I pretty much agree with all the advice given.
I have a special event equipment rental company which services corporate events, large weddings, expos and trade shows as well as smaller local events.

The integation of an A/V production division into our existing services has proven to be rather successful. More so for supplentary income, (and as an enticement for our customers to use a company that can "do it all") than mainstream income though.)

Out of all the events we've filmed and recorded, and of all the performers we have worked for, I have to add that the local bands are the ones with the least ability to compensate you for your time. (I'll admit though, they are the most fun to work with .:o)...) Most of the services we have provided to them have been at no charge, just to get our name "in the loop", or to learn new equipment and software ourselves.

I recomend you keep plugging away. Remember that prices for technical services vary from city-to-city, and you shouldn't rule out any type of work (special events, training video, documentaries, etc. It doesn't hurt to let your local chamber of commerce or government know that you have the capabilities to produce for them (and that you are willing to "throw in " a job or to just to let them check out your work.

Good luck to you! Hope it all works out.

John

kosins, would you mind telling us how you charge for video production work?

Sure,
Camera, audio recording and computer production time runs about 28.00 per hour. Material such as blank media are usually just thrown in as part of the package.
Reduced hourly charges are often put in place especially for large projects, repeat customers, and charitable organizations (which by the way- some of the large ones are willing to -spend money-)

Often times the production services are part of a "rental package" that may include stage, projector,lighting, sound system, tent, and /or catering equipment rental, as well as on-site tech support, equipment operation before, during, and after an event. This causes fluctuation in the "production price" since I tend to consider other aspects (size and cost of the entire project for example)
I'd rather undercharge a good customer and keep them forever than try to "get all I can" with each and every job.

Not sure if this answered your question or not, but it's the best I can explain it.
John
:o)

thanks kosins. so your fees are kind of an estimate, not an exact number, once you see how much time and equipment is involved.

my question at this point is how to start with 3 basic packages (cheap, medium, best), so the customers know what to expect for the price. one way to look at music video editing is the amount of work/time and tweaking put into it. longer rolls and few edits would be the cheap side, the medium deal would be a couple of locations and a good flow of camera work and edits, and the best package would be several locations and a high degree of editing work as needed. videos would be limited to approx. 4 minutes.

a cd graphics company i know of (pen and pixel) charges this way, according to the effort spent on the project.

Statas,
When you say "music video", are you referring only to taping live events and editing them down or are you referring to concept videos?

i mean concept videos, not tripod archiving of an event from one angle. it could be as simple as a roaming camera at a live event, or as complex as multiple locations with props and an abstract plot with visual tricks and effected editing (essentially a creative piece with a soundtrack).

If you are looking at doing concept videos, you need to think of other aspects, like who is coming up with the concepts, doing storyboards, scripts, location scouting, and so on. You can't leave it all up to the band, as most bands have very little knowledge about what is needed for a video shoot, or exactly how much it actually costs to do "that Matrix thing". Sure you can just show up and shoot, but the results are usually less than desirable. This means you should be involved in the planning stage, which means more time which translates to charging more money. 'I' personally think you are on the right track when you provide options to the band ie cheapest, regular or deluxe. Spell out each option fully, and then let them choose. This has worked well for me in recording & producing many underground bands. I too adjust rates depending upon how much I'm doing for a band.

joebno

OK, That's what I thought you meant.

Concept music videos are like mini movies and should be produced that way....based on a budget. When you find a band that wants a video, the first thing that you should do is sit down with them and figure out what they are looking for. Explain to them that the cost of the video depends on the complexity and their budget. I know it sounds weird, like if a car dealer told you the price of your car depends on how much money you got, but really, a budget based video is the only way to go.

For example, I tell a band that I could make a video for them and just give them 3 prices, let's say $100.00, $500.00 amd $1000.00. They opt for the $1000.00 video. They now are thinking that since they are buying the "top of the line" option, that they are going to be recieving a video that compares with the $100,000 videos they see on MTV. Obviously that is not possible. And yes...............They will think this way ;)

Instead:

I explain that the complexity of their video is directly proportional to their budget. After all, I would be perfectly willing to make them that $100,000 video if that is what their budget is. I would hire professional camera operators, rent top notch equiptment, hire great actors etc...

Now let's say that they have a budget of $1000.00. Well then you go over what is wanted out of the video and since you have a budget, you can explain what ideas are and are not possible on $1000.00

Two things not to forget:

1. Include the cost of your time in the budget. (as stated before, we often undervalue our own time)

2. Have a written aggreement that the band will pay all production costs as they come up. For example: If you need to rent out a club for a couple hours, and that is $100, make sure that the band pays that. Unless of course you have the bankroll to finance production as well..........and are very trusting ;) But really, if you have the band cover production costs as they come up then when you're done with the video, the rest of the money owed will be only your fees. If they decide they aren't going to pay.........well its still annoying but at least you haven't directly lost the cash as you would if you financed production.




P.S. This is the exact market that I've been researching here in the Twin Cities for the last 9 months. I am still doing freebies trying to build up a portfolio. Email me anytime: scobbs@frontiernet.net