My plea, again, to Sonic Foundry.

ThomasATL wrote on 11/15/2001, 11:09 PM
I have spent the better part of the last two weeks searching for what is to be my next software. I'm moving over to the post side of things yet I want to use one software for both audio and audio post. Currently, I use Vegas 2 exclusively for my music needs.

My plea is this: For Sonic Foundry to step up to the plate and seriously challenge the ProTools market....... Really. Nothing is as easy as Vegas to edit audio. It's simplicity is it's greatest asset.

MIDI is NOT needed for this program. Use another company that perfected this app a long time ago. What is needed is the ability to perform common post apps used everyday.

Control surfaces (SAC-2K, JL Cooper) have to be implemented. Look, I love vector automation but real studios use control surfaces and hands on control of software speeds the process. And it looks cool and makes us all feel like we're in a cool enviroment (I'm not joking.)

It does need to import and export OMF files for interaction with the PT market. It needs to address the needs of the studio that makes a living with clients behind their back. I have made alot of money with clients using Sound Forge and Vegas for editing jobs and a few bands. But I would like to take it to the larger field. Posting for film.

I would applaud for SF to make a video editing app that is as good as Final Cut Pro and Avid Express DV. Go for it. But understand (and I'm sure you do) that both of those products are not playing around. They want the pro market. So please make my life easier and let me see a working post product in a year from now. Don't make me spend that needless money on ProTools. Please.

One last thing. I was buying a TV at Best Buy and I decided to celebrate with a new DVD. So I'm walking down the aisle and what do I see? Vegas 2 on the bottom shelf of BEST BUY!!!!! - just staring at me like "What am I doing here in Best Buy?"

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!

This is not the end game, Sonic Foundry, for crying out loud! Get back into the rep game and dominate MI. Stop acting like Toys R Us and man-up.

End my suffering. Make me proud.

By the way, I love Vegas - just finish it.

Thomas

Comments

VU-1 wrote on 11/15/2001, 11:31 PM
Agreed. I would also like to see the same scenario played out with Sound Forge/CD Arch. in the editing/mastering arena (see my soap-box post on the DAO thread in the CDA forum).

Incidentally, I was introduced to the Acid scene with Acid Music 2.0. Guess where I bought it?....Office Depot!

JL
OTR
ThomasATL wrote on 11/16/2001, 12:13 AM
"Incidentally, I was introduced to the Acid scene with Acid Music 2.0. Guess where I bought it?....Office Depot!"

You're not helping my cause with that scenario, especially since I did read your post in CDA and you seem informed. Ok, I'll ammend. Sell the lite, beginner versions in the Office Depots of the world. But don't have your premium products next to 1000 Computer Clip Arts of Cats and Dogs! That's surely misplaced marketing.

But more importantly, take advantage of your superior products that have more potential than all the other softwares combined!

(I must add that I left out the need for surround in every capability)

Here is what I have heard over and over again in regards to Logic and Digital Performer. "As long as I can edit audio in ProTools, I'll be fine." Honestly, I haven't used Nuendo (which I'm only trying because they at least state that they are going after the higher market). Of course there are problems with OMF and it crashes alot for post apps. But if Nuendo doesn't handle audio better than Cubase - and I mean by a long shot, I will be in tears. Because where else will I go? I have to be able to ADR. I have to be able to edit as easy as I do in Vegas. Automatic crossfades - as simple as they are - change the way I comp vocals. It's a Godsend and no one else has that (I haven't checked Nuendo).

Anyway, I don't want this to be taken as a bash against SF. On the contrary, it's just me begging for them to see it through to where it should be - on par with the abilities of ProTools software. Combine Vegas with RME Hardware and you have a nice system. Add a UA card and you are smoking.

BTW, does a VST wrapper work flawlessly with Vegas (the UA card needs VST)?

Thomas
allon wrote on 11/16/2001, 1:06 AM
vst wrapper is not flawless.
its a good tool but you still dont get automation of the fx like you would on a vst.
SHTUNOT wrote on 11/16/2001, 2:45 AM
DUDE...
1. 5.1 surround support[soft encode anyone?!].You included a discontinued item[CDA] with the next version of vegas audio...why not another as well. [I can hear the guys at steinberg and avid screaming now!]
2. Add vst support[plugins] as well as dx automation,dxI,etc...up to date basically.

I'd be content right there.Anything else anyone?
ThomasATL wrote on 11/16/2001, 10:46 AM
Digital Performer is one of the contenders on the Mac side (if I have to go that platfrom). Apparently their audio editing is less than desirable, but I was told (via another forum) that it was capable of the following:

"DP3 allows mixing in all of the following formats: mono, stereo, quad, LCRS, 5.1, 6.1, 7.1, and 10.2.
It can spot and edit to SMPTE, there are sync points and time stamps and you can import and export OMF-compatible files."

I don't want to rehash the VST argument again as SF has (from my memory) rebuked the notion of compliance with VST. However, with cards like the UA having to have VST, I would hope they would reconsider. Hopefully (and most likely so) there are varibles with which I am ignorant of and maybe they are working on the UA problem right now. UA, BTW, takes a rather aggressive stance towards Digi, having no plans to work with the PT system. You have to love that.
MixNut wrote on 11/16/2001, 2:06 PM
I have to agree with all prior comments...

What *REALLY* burns me as of right now is the fact that I jumped onboard with Vegas right after it became available and paid $700 for this software package! I made this decision based on my experience with SF 4.0 and on demos of Vegas Betas and other competitive products.

It KILLS me to see other people now purchasing this software for $139 [or using FREE cracked versions] while knowing that I will have to pay $99 to upgrade my $700 package!!! How in HELL is this fair to *any* of us who joined up early and paid that kind of price?

Vegas is a good program. It is, however, missing a LOT of functionality needed to classify it as truly PRO. I spend all day working with an AMS Neve AudioFile/L3 and SADiE Artemis systems, so I have a fair basis for comparison.

Please...WORK for the $700 I paid you and expand this package in response to the countless requests you receive for logical, BASIC, key features!!!

dsanders wrote on 11/16/2001, 2:09 PM
Well Thomas, if you want to send $600 to Sonic Foundry and but VV off of their web site, go right ahead. I bought VV at Best Buyt for a quarter of that price and love it. No, I am not a professional, but I do have an artistic head on my shoulders. The "Consumer Oriented" NLE software is really crap. Believe me. I spent about $300 buying various cheaper programs, only to say, "lets see what the professionals use." I was really glad to see such a well equipped software product being sold at a price of only $149!

At that price I think Sonic Foundry will sell a lot of copies. Because of this, maybe third parties might take notice and begin to support VV plug ins. I'd really like to see a plugin for titling and another for Dolby Digital (both stereo and 5.1).

That's just my two cents!
ThomasATL wrote on 11/16/2001, 4:40 PM
"Well Thomas, if you want to send $600 to Sonic Foundry and but VV off of their web site, go right ahead."

Re-read my post. At no time will you read me complaining about price and SF products. Also, if you are buying software off SF's site, that's your problem. It's always at a lower price in MI outlets.



"I bought VV at Best Buyt for a quarter of that price and love it. No, I am not a professional, but I do have an artistic head on my shoulders."

It's nice that you're artistic. Everyone on this forum is artistic. If you do not strive to use Vegas in a professional medium, then you are in a better position than I am.



"The "Consumer Oriented" NLE software is really crap. Believe me. I spent about $300 buying various cheaper programs, only to say, "lets see what the professionals use." I was really glad to see such a well equipped software product being sold at a price of only $149!"

"Consumer Oriented NLE's" to me are Final Cut Pro and Avid Express DV. They will be my barometers when I measure Vegas. They are the obvious competition. I'll post back in detail about that. Regardless, I will continue to be a Sonic Foundry supporter. I will have their products and I will continue to tell others about the products because I believe that SF will end up going the direction I'm seeking (not because of me but because it is the obvious choice). However, if you got the full version of Vegas Video for only $149.00, I could be wrong.



"At that price I think Sonic Foundry will sell a lot of copies."

No, at that price they will not earn any revenue that could possibly support the R&D for the suggestions I am making. Keep in mind that perception of product is far more important than the product itself when it comes to the public. Take ProTools LE. From a MI's perspective, you would think that the public would know that this is a "lite" ProTools. Nah. Most don't even consider the limitations because it says ProTools.

SF was built on Sound Forge and it's sheer genius and simplicity to do the job quick and efficiently. There is no shortage of stories on the changing of the guard at SF. MI's virtually out. I'll say it again. Best Buy is NOT SF's market. It doesn't take a genius to figure that out. As you can probably tell, I'm no genuis. Just a guy hoping the best for a software he loves................
ThomasATL wrote on 11/17/2001, 12:19 AM
"As you can probably tell, I'm no genuis..."

Typo or not, that is classic. Forget everything I've said. I'll settle down. Classic.
Avene wrote on 11/17/2001, 7:05 PM
I actually have Vegas Video and Nuendo. I bought Nuendo because I knew it was a pro product with Pro Tools like features. Along with the VST plugin support enabling me to use a multitude of free plugins on the net, and being able to automate individual parameters of these plugins. Such parameters as the filter cutoff of a low pass filter, or delay times etc. Then there's the surround sound support aswell, incase I ever need that.

Vegas Video I bought as an alternative to programs such as Premiere or Media studio pro. With the OHCI firewire support, I could run it on my laptop connected to a DV camera. For video it's brilliant. The way in which video clips snap to a beats and bars grid is something no other video program I know of has. Perfect for music videos where you know what the exact tempo is.

Out of the two, Vegas Video is a lot easier to edit audio. The way in which clips will automatically crossfade into one another is something Nuendo cannot do. Being able to timestretch clips by holding control and dragging the ends is something Nuendo cannot do either. It's only option there is to actually process the audio. It's more accurate that way, but can be a slow process. At the same time, being able to process audio straight from the timeline like that is something Vegas cannot do. Unless you were to open it in Sound Forge. Most of my studio clients prefer Vegas. Mainly because it's easier for them to understand, and they don't require any of the extra features Nuendo has to offer.

If Sonic Foundry included the ability to be able to automate individual parameters of plugins such as the filter cutoff I mentioned earlier, and added support for surround sound, then I'd be more than likely to dump Nuendo.

Of course for Video Editing I still believe Vegas Video is King. There was one time a guy came over who was a Final Cut Pro user. He was pretty impressed by my music video. When I showed him how brilliant Vegas Video was, and what it could do, he was quick to ask me if it was available for Macs. Of course he was disapointed when I told him it wasn't. I've seen FCP and it's slow to work with. The way in which paremeters are nested. There's no way it's interface can compete with VV. I think the only reason it's considered pro, is because it's among the best on the Mac platform. The fact that most professional video editing suites are Mac based is probably the only reason VV doesn't get a look in. Considering how most Mac users are snobby towards pcs, I doubt that it will have much chance in that arena anyway.