Need voice of experience advice

phox6801 wrote on 4/2/2009, 3:52 PM
I'm about done with thinking through the possibilities and need some experts to give me input on the best workflow method using Vegas for the following business model.

- Clients give me old VHS, Hi8, or VHS-C tapes to transfer to DVD for them.
- My intent is to give them a menu based DVD with up to 2 hours of footage at 8mbps bitrate to ensure good quality.

THE PROBLEM:

- Capturing the video using my canopus advc110 is fine using Vegas Capture to AVI format... however

I have to then re-render the footage in Vegas to make it DVD compatible and find that the re-rendered footage usually won't fit up to 2 hours on a std. 4.7gb disc.

This then requires that I split their "ONE" tape into "TWO" dvds.

The time to re-render is almost the same as the first capture using Vegas.

Now I have 4 hours of time wrapped up to get ready to use DVD Architect.

Now, DVD Architect requires more time to get the first of two dvd's just to get ONE tape converted. Total time of monitoring, tweaking, menu making, etc. is over 5 hours now for just ONE tape.

I have customers who want me to convert dozens of tapes and it's horrifically long to get it done this way.

WHAT I'VE TRIED INSTEAD:

- I've tried to render to MPEG2 format to avoid the middle re-render time using software like Roxio during the capture. However, this captures at about 8.5mbps bitrate and still requires re-render in either Sony Vegas or Sony DVDA. (MORE TIME)

- I've tried to use a simple DVD recorder (Philips DVD Recorder 3390) and rip the DVD in MPEG2 format to use in the DVDArchitect. STill a lot of time involved. Plus, this method results in only 1 hour being recordable on ONE dvd-rw or dvdR. It would be great if I could just dump straight to DVD-R and have a nice looking menu on it, but this DVD Recorder doesn't offer nice menus, just a blue screen with stupid titles.

I'd like to just hook up my vcr or video camera... click play and record and walk away and then take the captured file and put on a DVD with a menu. Voila. Windows Movie Maker can create DVD's pretty simple, but I'm not sure how it does with compressing AVI's and make the video still look good.

Is there a production workflow solution using Vegas and DVDA that anyone has used to accomplish this without too much hassle?

I've spoken to tech support about the various compression ratios using DVDA and nobody seems to have a simple answer on how to get 2 hours of video on my DVD at a high bitrate to ensure quality. Most conversion solutions take the bitrate down to 4mbps or less and that looks horrible on a flat screen TV... not so bad on a picture tube TV.

THOUGHTS PLEASE!!!!

Comments

musicvid10 wrote on 4/2/2009, 4:04 PM
"I have to then re-render the footage in Vegas to make it DVD compatible and find that the re-rendered footage usually won't fit up to 2 hours on a std. 4.7gb disc."

Do you "really" have Vegas Pro?
If so, you can render to a DVDA MPEG-2 template and set the bitrate to whatever you need to fit your 2 hrs. on a standard disc.
I not, you can render DV-AVI, and let DVDA do the render to MPEG-2, in which case it will automatically set the bitrate for you to fit the disc of your choosing.

"I've spoken to tech support about the various compression ratios using DVDA and nobody seems to have a simple answer on how to get 2 hours of video on my DVD at a high bitrate to ensure quality. Most conversion solutions take the bitrate down to 4mbps or less and that looks horrible on a flat screen TV... not so bad on a picture tube TV."

You can't have it both ways. You can have a higher bitrate which gives higher quality but uses more space, or you can have a lower bitrate which uses less space but with lower quality.

You are absolutely correct -- a two hour video on a standard disc will require a bitrate somewhere in the 4.5Mbs range.

Bitrate X Time = Disc Usage

Or, you can use an online bitrate calculator such as this one:
http://www.videohelp.com/calc.htm
musicvid10 wrote on 4/2/2009, 4:17 PM
Using your set-top DVD recorder, you should be able to choose the record mode:
SP = 2 hours on one standard disc.

I don't know about your recorder, but I can just copy the .VRO file to my desktop, rename it to .mpg, and go from there. If you can get Vegas to smart-render (no recompress), it shouldn't take long at all to get it in a DVDA-friendly format.
Yoyodyne wrote on 4/2/2009, 4:20 PM
I don't see how this could be a viable business with these tools. The only way to do it would be with automation and volume but I'm guessing the investment would be pretty big.

If your selling yourself as a high end video restoration service then maybe... but I'm betting you just couldn't charge enough to make it pan out.
phox6801 wrote on 4/2/2009, 4:23 PM
The problem I have with re-rendering in Vegas is that it takes as long to re-render as it did to capture it. Vegas simply takes almost 2 hours to re-render a 2 hour AVI into DVDA friendly format.

Then the render to DVD in DVDA takes a while too.

I've used Vegas for years to create my own projects, but this is a first time endeavor to transfer videos for clients.
JJKizak wrote on 4/2/2009, 4:24 PM
Why don't you just use a Dual Layer disc?
JJK
phox6801 wrote on 4/2/2009, 4:26 PM
Using your set-top DVD recorder, you should be able to choose the record mode:

When you copy the VRO file... is it from the disc itself using EXPLORE DISC in Windows to see the VRO file or do you have to rip the disc first?

The 4.5mbps bitrate for 2 hours... is that really a compromise in quality in real-world terms? I don't know enough about what people are used to seeing in order to guess the best bitrate. I read somewhere (in my days of searching now) that 12mbps is the optimal rate for DVD, but that's just insane.
phox6801 wrote on 4/2/2009, 4:27 PM
YOVODYNE:

The business model isn't unrealistic if you type VHS to DVD into GOOGLE and you'll find dozens of businesses doing it for cheap prices. It can't be rocket science at the rates they charge. I'm mystified how they do it and stay so affordable. I'm pulling my hair out trying to make it look nice using a menu based DVD in DVDA.
phox6801 wrote on 4/2/2009, 4:29 PM
Why don't you just use a Dual Layer disc?

I would love to make it that simple, but don't most DVD players "not" like dual layer discs? I mean, doesn't it require a special DVD RW Rom in my computer to write to dual layer? Also, doesn't it require the customer to have a dual layer friendly dvd player to see what's there?

I'm new to this consumer end process and that's why I'm asking so many questions... sorry!
rs170a wrote on 4/2/2009, 4:30 PM
I've seen several different brands of standalone DVD recorders (the ones with a built-in hard drive) that allow simple editing and the creation of a basic menu.
This would be the fastest way of doing it.
As others have said though, to get the bitrate you want, you can only get one hr. on a DVD.

Mike
phox6801 wrote on 4/2/2009, 4:35 PM
I've seen several different brands of standalone DVD recorders (the ones with a built-in hard drive) that allow simple editing and the creation of a basic menu.

Mike,

What is the industry norm of bitrate on DVD quality projects at 2 hours? I mean, let's say you create a 2 hour documentary and want to put it on a DVD and sell it to clients. You've mastered it in Vegas and now it's time to put it on DVD. Do you live with 4.5mbps as GOOD quality or does it look pixelated too much? I just don't know what industry standards are and whether I'm kidding myself to shoot for 8mbps when 3mbps is sufficent (so to speak).

I know "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" and "it's what my customer is happy with" is the easy answer, but there has to be some industry standard bitrate that consumers are used to seeing on DVD, isn't there?

Would my Philips DVD recorder use 4.5mbps in the 2 hour SP mode? I'm curious.
Yoyodyne wrote on 4/2/2009, 5:12 PM
I'm not saying the business model of VHS to DVD transfer is unrealistic, I'm saying doing it with Vegas and DVD architect is.

These guys are charging around 10 bucks for a 2 hour VHS to DVD transfer.

http://www.vhs-to-dvd.com/prices.html

I'm assuming to make money at this there process is completely automated. I mean I couldn't even come up with a menu in DVD architect for 10 bucks.

I'm not trying to shoot your idea down but I don't think Vegas and DVD arch are the right tools to try and make money at this. Just my 02.
rmack350 wrote on 4/2/2009, 5:23 PM
Maybe it's unrealistic, maybe not. Googling those terms to see how many people do it doesn't tell you if they make any money and it doesn't tell you how many are going out of business. What it does tell you is that the market is fairly big and fairly saturated.

I think most people's home recorders will play a dual layer disk. You'd need a burner that can make them but those are affordable and plentiful these days. Why not make a dual layer test disk to give to people to take home? That way they can tell you if it plays. Heck, give them a dual layer and a single layer disk to test.

There are converters out there that are designed to convert an analog or a DV stream as you play it. I'd look for that sort of hardware and then figure out what DVD authoring tool you need to use with it. DVDa requires separate A and V files but maybe some other tool doesn't.

What are you offering the client that they couldn't do themselves? Menus, a DVD burner, your expertise, presumably some sort of time base correction or some means of cleaning up their old VHS sources a little. Most of this needs to be done on the fly as you capture it to your hard disc.

Rob Mack
rmack350 wrote on 4/2/2009, 5:27 PM
If you render separate audio and video files from Vegas then DVDa shouldn't ever need to rerender. Get the Vegas output right and that cuts out a step. But you still would be better off if you never have to bring the video into Vegas in the first place.
musicvid10 wrote on 4/2/2009, 5:50 PM
"When you copy the VRO file... is it from the disc itself using EXPLORE DISC in Windows to see the VRO file . . ."

Yes.

"I read somewhere (in my days of searching now) that 12mbps is the optimal rate for DVD,"

This is not correct. 9.5Mbs is the maximum bitrate for standard DVD, 8Mbs or less is a real-world "safe" limit. Some players won't handle much over 6Mbs, in my experience.

JJ said:
"Why don't you just use a Dual Layer disc?"

Many home players will not play DVD-DL.

"What is the industry norm of bitrate on DVD quality projects at 2 hours?"

Commercial DVDs are all dual layer. They are made with superior CCDs, lenses, and mpeg encoders. That being the case, most commercial movie DVDs are encoded in the 5 - 6Mbs range.

Mike said:
"I've seen several different brands of standalone DVD recorders (the ones with a built-in hard drive) that allow simple editing and the creation of a basic menu. As others have said though, to get the bitrate you want, you can only get one hr. on a DVD."

They can be set for 1 hr (XP), 2 hrs (SP), 4 hrs (LP), 6 hrs (EP), or fit-to-disc recording.
Also, the files, menus and chapters created in set-top recorders do not import into DVDA because of the naming structure and heirarchy.

The fastest way I've found to do this, is:
-- Record to set-top at SP if you want 2hrs on a standard disc.
-- Copy the .VRO to desktop. Rename to .mpg
-- Put the renamed file on the Vegas timeline.
-- Set markers (chapters) and edit.
-- Smart-render in Vegas starting with a DVDA template. You know you've succeeded if a "No recompression required" message is displayed in the preview. Total render time in Vegas - less than 30 minutes.
-- Open the rendered .mpg and .ac3 in DVDA.
-- Add menus, scene selection, whatever.
-- Prepare in DVDA. Total prepare time - about 10 minutes.

This works. I do it all the time. The only difference I can see is my set-top is a different brand (Panasonic). After the initial tape->DVD-RAM recording is done, I can have a quick DVD with menus and chapters done in under an hour.
rs170a wrote on 4/2/2009, 5:57 PM
What is the industry norm of bitrate on DVD quality projects at 2 hours?

There is no "industry standard" that I'm aware of.
I've been to shops where Hollywood movies are prepped for DVD release done and it's done on a scene by scene basis to maximize quality.
If your DVD player has it, turn on the option to see the bit rate as a commercial DVD is playing.
You'll be surprised at how low they can go and still maintain excellent quality.
Keep in mind that the "big boys" have tools we can only dream of.

The expression "Garbage In - Garbage Out" applies here.
I've done 2 hr. DVDs that still look good (to my eyes anyway) but I have a good 1/2" 3 CCD camera and I try to make sure each scene is well lit.

If I tried to do a 2 hr. DVD with VHS as source material, I'd use the same bitrate but I guarantee it wouldn't look nearly as good.
As already suggested, using dual-layer DVDs will allow you to use a higher bitrate which means higher quality.

Would my Philips DVD recorder use 4.5mbps in the 2 hour SP mode? I'm curious. [

See my reply above about your DVD player's display options.

Mike
musicvid10 wrote on 4/2/2009, 6:04 PM
Standard VHS looks as good as the original to me when recorded to MPEG-2 at 4-5Mbs. The native quality of VHS is abysmal to begin with. I can't tell any difference at higher bitrates, and I've been doing a lot of these lately. Hi-8 is a little better native quality, and "might" benefit from a slightly higher bitrate.

If you can avoid re-rendering in Vegas or DVDA by arriving at the correct smart-render settings, your finished DVD should look as good as the original tape. Recompression always loses quality, no matter at which stage it is done.

"Would my Philips DVD recorder use 4.5mbps in the 2 hour SP mode? I'm curious."

Why don't you check using MediaInfo or GSpot? My Panny records 720x480, UFF, 3800Kbs VBR (9334Kbs max), Audio 384Kbs, 48KHz, Stereo AC-3, in SP mode. It's pretty much a straight-through process to get a DVD out using Vegas and DVDA in about an hour after recording.
phox6801 wrote on 4/2/2009, 6:37 PM
MUSICVID:

"-- Smart-render in Vegas starting with a DVDA template. You know you've succeeded if a "No recompression required" message is displayed in the preview. Total render time in Vegas - less than 30 minutes."

When you say "SMART RENDER" is that just another term for using their premade templates or is that some feature I've not heard of?

Also, when you put the recorded DVD into your DVD drive on the computer, do you see the VRO file "AND" the ac3 file or is the ac3 file embedded in the VRO?

Just to be correct... I don't need to "rip" the dvd I recorded, right?
musicvid10 wrote on 4/2/2009, 6:49 PM
Smart-rendering is when you set your render settings exactly the same as your source video settings, so that Vegas copies frame-for-frame without recompressing, thus preserving the original quality exactly, and in a very short time. There are many references in the help files, these forums, and external tutorials to help get you started down this path. Go to the Vegas Help and type in "smart."

The .VRO contains the video and the audio. When you render to the DVDA video template in Vegas, it renders just the video, not the audio. Then you need to render the AC-3 audio separately so DVDA will find them, and thus prepare your DVD without rendering again. This does not take long. This is also well-explained in the documentation.

"Just to be correct... I don't need to "rip" the dvd I recorded, right?"
Once again, I COPY the .VRO file from the DVD-RAM disc to the desktop using Windows Explorer. I do not "rip" it or "import" it using another application or utility. I then rename the file extension to .mpg. Hope this helps, and

Good luck!
phox6801 wrote on 4/3/2009, 5:11 AM
Musicvid:

thank you so much for tolerating my many questions. It's been a frustrating process to come up with an efficient production method and you've provided some excellent steps for us to try.

I'll begin to work on this today and see how it goes.
phox6801 wrote on 4/3/2009, 8:35 AM
MUSICVID:

I opened the explore disc folder on Windows and see two folders. I assume the VIDEO_TS folder is the one with the actual video files and the other is just for a DVD player to know how to run the disc.

My DVD recorder split the video into 5 segments... the first 4 each .99gb and the remaining one about 150mb.

I thought it created "one" master VBO file?

WHen I use DVDA, do I just put the individual files in the menu area or do I need to rerender using vegas and the smart render feature you mentioned so that I get just ONE master video file to use?

I don't want the final DVD to have chapters simply because it split it into nice .99gb files.
musicvid10 wrote on 4/3/2009, 9:22 AM
"My DVD recorder split the video into 5 segments... the first 4 each .99gb and the remaining one about 150mb."

That's too bad. It's much easier with just one file.

Try putting the files end-to-end on the Vegas timeline. You may need to do some trimming or such. There may still be some glitches or sync problems.

You might try "import dvd camcorder disc" in Vegas, but I've had problems doing it this way.

You could also rip it to one big file using the right settings in DVD Shrink, which should work just fine using my method, but that adds a step.

My recorder creates one big file. Again, much easier to work with.
plasmavideo wrote on 4/3/2009, 9:26 AM
What I would do for a large quantity of transfers:

1. Ensure you hava a decent VHS machine. In the setup menu, turn off any form of processing, like edge enhancement, and put it in "edit" if it has that setting (to remove any type up processing)

2. Get a good Panasonic desktop DVD recorder. All of the ones I've seen have line in noise reduction that really helps clean up VHS recordings - at least mine do. Other brands might have this as well.

3. Push go, and record your DVD in 2 hour mode. Before finalizing, make your menu and trim the clips if needed.

Done - with the VHS cleaned up and no further encoding needed. You can even leave the thing and work on another project on the computer while it's transferring. That's how it can be done for 10 bucks . . . .

Alternative is to get a self contained VHS/DVD recorder. I'm sure they have noise reduction built in as well.

Of course, this assumes you won't need to do much editing or color correction, etc. That costs a LOT more than the 10 bucks teaser.

I also have a DVD recorder with a built in hard drive. With one of those, you can record to the hard drive, do your trimming there, and then transfer to the final DVD. That gives you some more control over content, and assurances that the material is properly transferred. Sometimes you might have some bad media, and the transfer fails. In that case, without the hard disc intermediate step, you would have to capture all over again.
musicvid10 wrote on 4/3/2009, 9:45 AM
"2. Get a good Panasonic desktop DVD recorder. All of the ones I've seen have line in noise reduction that really helps clean up VHS recordings - at least mine do. Other brands might have this as well."

I agree - my Panasonic combo recorder does such a good job that some DVDs from VHS tapes come out a little better than the noisy 12-15 year old originals.
phox6801 wrote on 4/3/2009, 12:17 PM
MUSICVID:

I've somehow figured out how to smart-render in vegas after using mediainfo to determine the bitrate, etc. of the DVD recorded media. I am trying to stitch together the video files, but even though it smart-renders, it's still taking a long time to stitch them together (20-30 minutes).

I downloaded womble (free trial version) to see how long it would take to re-render these same 5 mpgs into one, and it took 4 minutes and kept the bitrate aspect. However, it did change it from CBR to VBR (why, i don't know?).

I'm perplexed as to why Vegas takes to long to re-render even using Smart Render. I only rendered the video portion and was going to re-render the audio separate since there were 5 audio clips in ac3 format as well.

What gives?