How soon before Paramont realizes they made a mistake with HD-DVD?

They made $150 million... and you call that a mistake??? Somehow I don't think they share in your idea.

I see someone has started a class action against Samsung over their BD-01200 and its inability to play some movies. Hopefully if the case succeeds Samsung will sue Sony.

Bob.

Well, I kind of mentioned in another thread that I didn't think Samsung was souly responsible for this BD+ disaster. I think they do have some sort of case against Sony.... we'll see how it plays out.

The much bigger picture is the more interesting one. BD has been a work in progress for a very long time. I saw the first incarnation at IBC years ago. Asking price was $3,000 and even the disk was different to what's on offer today, the thing was in a caddy.
Problem always has been that both HD DVD and BD are a solution in need of a problem. M$, Google, Apple etc all got it, Sony still don't get it. You'd think after tripping over their shoelaces for decades Sony would have gotten a bit smarter.
The whole media business today is so out of touch it gets cited as an example by economists of how to fail in business. Maybe we shouldn't just mention Sony although they seem to really shine when it comes to getting it wrong.

Bob.

FARSS, with all the big name manufacturers of BD players, Samsung is the only one having trouble, many believe that Samsung basic design tried to be BD, HD DVD BM and they limited the flash memory and ARM cpu based on model. Its funny, because Samsung is a major manufacturer of flash, Apple is just one of their many customers, that they would be forced to use smaller flash memories than desired. But Samsung, tho great in ICs ,TVs,etc, seem to have problems with DVD players and the similar customer electronics.

There are a few rumors running around that MS$ money is funding the class action against Samsung, since MS was suing Samsung about not using MS code for the dual player. This would not be the first time MS$ tried suing to delay product development.

Samsung suing Sony, thats a MS$ dream but Samsung and Sony are major partners in flat panel TVs, plus Samsung wants Sony's Oled design for mass production. Toshiba claimed that they were going to Mass produce 31" Oled soon, but learned they did not have engineering skill. So, guess who Toshiba is trying to sweet talk too.

Believe all the MS$ spin about anti-Sony, but just look at who's talking to who for technology.

Bob,

I'm not exactly sure what you're talking about. The blue laser disc in a caddy became the XDCAM disc format for their professional camcorders which is different than the consumer BluRay disc.

John

This was back in 2003. Sony had a player under glass but obviously designed as a consummer unit, pretty huge, that used a disk in a caddy. Was that disk in a caddy exactly the same as the XDCAM disk, I cannot say but I seem to recall sometime later being told it wasn't. There were lots of issues with the whole BD design back then, UV light and fingerprints were looking like being a real problem which would have accounted for the caddy. Certainly at IBC 2003 Sony had whatever it was targetted at the consummer market. Obviously since then it underwent several revisions, it took a long time before they released it into the general market although from how they were talking at IBC '03 it was going to be a few months away.

I'm also told the BD tech used today in the XDCAM disk is different to what's used in todays consummer BD disks. I don't have anything specific on that but the impression I was given was it's not even remotely the same disk put in a caddy. Of course anything you get told on the floor of a trade show is always pretty suspect.

Paramount received 50M and Dreamworks received 100M for promotional considerations. I don't believe you can confuse that investment with "making $150M" as it's not remotely the same. Paramount and Dreamworks *may* have broken even on the HD DVD fiasco, but it's not likely. That money was spent on marketing a new product, developing new campaigns, paying additional monies to directors like Michael Bay for his endorsement and exclusivity. I'm personally aware of Michael's deal and it was lucrative.

Paramount/Dreamworks likely didn't show a positive cash flow on HD DVD, and if they did, it wasn't a profit that could be considered worthwhile by any normal standard.

I see someone has started a class action against Samsung over their BD-01200 and its inability to play some movies. Hopefully if the case succeeds Samsung will sue Sony. Bob.

http://www.blu-ray.com/news/?id=931

"They made $150 million... and you call that a mistake??? Somehow I don't think they share in your idea"

Yes a HUGE mistake.. consdiering Transformers, being ONE of many movies, cost up to and over 150m to produce. Thats just ONE movie with a tonne of licensing value. Not to mention Michael Bay (among other directors and producers) jumping ship due to the fact that TFormers was touted as a HD DVD ONLY movie.

Theyre sick of this war too. THey jsut want their work to be seen and they cant even do that when this crap keep plaguing the industry.
The solution?
Reverse engineering.

As it stands there are VC1 and AVCHD versions which have been ripped, and reencoded for BD playback.
Is it illegal? A format shift is NOT illegal ( here in aus), however the distribution of said reformatted movie is illegal.
But thast not going to stop people.
They want to the see their choice of movies on their choice of playback device and if the studios want to stop this, theyre going to have to accomodate the market need.
Its that simple.

"They made $150 million... and you call that a mistake??? Somehow I don't think they share in your idea" Well, I don't think the fine print in the contract is in the public domain yet, I do doubt that the studios don't have a escape clause based on general retail access to their movies plus number of sales over a given period.

Since the entertainment lawyers and CPAs are considered some of the slickness and toughness, I'm sure that the studios got the better part of the deal.

And MS$ and Intel goals probably don't match Toshiba, so Toshiba is more in the hot seat over HD DVD performance vs. them. Companies all the time are forced to write-off technology that doesn't sell or has too many liabilities. It depends how much MS$ and Intel can force Toshiba to push HD DVD.

Yes a HUGE mistake.. consdiering Transformers, being ONE of many movies, cost up to and over 150m to produce. Thats just ONE movie with a tonne of licensing value. Not to mention Michael Bay (among other directors and producers) jumping ship due to the fact that TFormers was touted as a HD DVD ONLY movie.

You are so far off base it's not even funny.

M. Bay sure shot his mouth off when the Paramount decision was announced. But inside of 24 hours he was quickly and loudly backtracking on his words. He was no doubt told to shut up and "toe the line". There are links to his statements on the AVS forum to prove this.

And Transformers was NOT a hd dvd movie only... it also came out on dvd so if you think they were hurt by not putting it out on BD, you would be sadly mistaken. neither one of these formats were or are anywhere NEAR money makers for ANY of the studios

Paramount/Dreamworks likely didn't show a positive cash flow on HD DVD, and if they did, it wasn't a profit that could be considered worthwhile by any normal standard.

And you're under the impression that the BD group is making giant scads of money??

"You are so far off base it's not even funny."

Whatever mate. If you choose to live in a tunnelvisions mentality thats your prerogative. I say it as i see it

"M. Bay sure shot his mouth off when the Paramount decision was announced. But inside of 24 hours he was quickly and loudly backtracking on his words. He was no doubt told to shut up and "toe the line". There are links to his statements on the AVS forum to prove this."

You said it yourself.. he was told to shut up. Sadly in this pathetic day and age, people are not allowed to aire their thoughts without someone wanting to argue with them... this post is a perfect example

"And Transformers was NOT a hd dvd movie only... it also came out on dvd "

I was specifically refering to HD content, as is th thread title pertaining the HD DVD and BD. I wasnt discussing SD. Do you honesty think that an SD equivalent maks up for the lack of content in BD? Do you honestly believe that BD owners would prefer an SD version of a movie as opposed to paing that lil extra premium to have the same movie in HD?
Your kidding yourself if you think BD owners are going to make that kind of compromise if theyre gven the choice.
I for onw wont buy any new SD DVD"s if theyre available in HD. If i can get it in HD, i will. Why, becuae the product is then future proofed for at least another 5 to 8 years and i can view the product in all its glory on my Phatt assed 1080p panel. I didnt invest THAT MUCH money on a panel not to milk it for all its worth... Im sure every other consumer would feel the same way too... I mean why woul dyou watch an inferior copy of the same movie, simply to save afew bux? Its like buys a HD panel and connecing a PS3 to it with composite.. totally defeats the purpose of its existance.

"so if you think they were hurt by not putting it out on BD, you would be sadly mistaken."

They have been hurt.
As mentioned there are copies now floating the torrents of reverse engineered rips of Tformers (among other films) specifically done for teh purpose of playing HD DVD content on BD based playback devices.
If a lowly pirate can do this without much fuss, then there nothing to keep them from cintuning this trend.
Matric, 300, Italian Job etc etc whatever... what were now seeing is pirates going into rip this content and transcode to a format which the market wants it in. What the studios want or try to do to stop it means absolute jack s**t.
They WILL NOT STOP. And the longer this stupid "war" goes on, the harder the studios are feel it, as people will just get sick of it and move along and download their content and forget that the disc based elements even exist
Dont think it wotn happen.. Its been happening for the last 4 yrs since Broadband became widely available.
Until the studios supply the consumer with their demands, the consumer will always find an alternative, whether it compromises the law or not
It has been proven time and again that the consumer does not care.

" neither one of these formats were or are anywhere NEAR money makers for ANY of the studios"

I beg to differ. each format has its pros and cons, technically and aesthetically. the fact however remains that there is a market share and demand for said content.
Regardless of whether or not the studio makes a profit, is nto the issue. They WILL make a profit once they stop dicking around and start ofering decent content at decent proces. By decent i refer to encoding qualities through to value added elements such as additional features etc

Offer teh customer more than what DVD can, and the money will come.
As it stands most studios are being lazy and rehashing old releases which look worse than upscaled SD equivalents.
The point is that the studios are lookign at this the wrong way. Theyre not looking at the fact that they now have the opportunity to not only ofer more, but to demonstarate what teh differences mean to the view.
COnsideirng the sale of these monster panels getting more an dmore intense each year, over 90% of those who own these panels dont even understand how to use them, let alone milk them for all tehir worth.
I have lost count how many clients i have seen whove misconfigured their panels then conintue to wonder why it looks like rubbish. 5 minutesf of thought and their problems are recitified.
Those 5 minutes (not even) are all it it takes to change someones perception about a certain product.
Show them the difference and they will make up their own minds.
As it stands both camps are killing each other for no reason apart from trying to be somehting (standard) which isnt really needed.
We dont need a standard. we jsut ned a playback device and content.
if both decided to just do their own ting and forget the other existed, i can guarantee that the consumer would invest in both formats to get the best of both worlds.
T
his stupid war is forcing people to take sides and frankly, the consumer wont stand for it. Hence the reason why formats now mean shit to both camps considering the fact that both have been cracked ripped and reauthored for each respective playback format.
Yes its illegal but it does indeed exist.

Until they dtop this crap, the consumer will continue to do what they feel they need to, to ensure their investment was worthwhile to them.
Its that simple

They have been hurt.

You really think M.Bay and Transformers is all that and a bag of chips and was a tremendous hurt to BD for not releasing on BD??

Here... read some of the stuff being said (and this thread is in the HDTV section of AVS, not the HD DVD section or Blu ray section):

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=993136 (Thread was deleted... but the Bay reviews were not good)

(And BTW... I have Transformers... believe me when I say it was not worth the $40 I paid for it.

blink, I am using Tformerss as an example. Not as a basis for argument.
The point is that there are MANY people who like it and are happy to invest in it.. much like the Matrix trilogy... but theyre not willing to invest any more than teh cost of the movie to watch it.

Its like trying to sell a video game console simply becuase it has THE one game that people want. Games like Ghost recon, Lost planet, Blacksite, Sonic, etc etc are all successful becuase no matter what console the consumer owns, they can play the product.
By spreading the product across a variety of market demographics, allos the product to penetrate said market even further. Its basic business 101.

Frankly i couldnt care about BD or HD DVD formats.
I wish theyd just release a hybrid player which will shut everyone up...

I just want to watch the movies i want to watch, the way i want to watch them. I shoudnt be forced to take sides.

I heard this in the shop when i was buying my new panel.

Have you got Matrix in HD

Yes but its only on HD DVD. To watch it you gotta buy a HD DVD player...

but thats 300bux, plus 100 for the trilogy

Yes we know... its a bit of a worry but its worth it

But I own a PS3 and can use it as a media server...

Silence

Well Im not about to fork out 400bux to watch the one movie i think is worth having in HD

Thats up to you. We can only offer whats available

U know the you can downlaod it and stream it to your PS3 without loss in quaity?

Sales guy had no idea at this point. till silent

Guy walks away
Sales guy loses a 100dollar sale
Industry or "camp" loses market penetration of their product
Studio loses sale and now has to deal with another statistic of lost numbers with an ongoing growth of piracy

Now if Matrix or whatever movie was available in the format which this guy wanted, more than likely he would have paid for it. It was pretty obvious he didnt want to else he would not have asked if hsi movie of choice was available in the format he wanted.

cant people see how this war is doing absolutly nothing for the industry?
What do they hopeto achieve? A short term financial boost by each respective camp, or longterm market penetration?

Geez.. its not brain surgery...

What the heck. I posted it once...why not in another thread. Bear in mind, I'm no artist...

http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q136/goshep/LastStand.jpg

"cant people see how this war is doing absolutly nothing for the industry?

So you're saying that they should have drawn straws at the beginning of this, and the team with the short straw takes the millions of dollars they invested, goes home and throws it into the garbage?

Look... if you're interested in blaming people then put the blame where it is due.... squarely on the backs of the studios. If they had ALL gone neutral from the beginning and stayed the hell out of this, we most likely would have had a winner here either way quite some time ago. This has not been a format war as much as it has been a studio war.

And the kicker is that the studios lost little or nothing over this. While it is true that exclusivity costs money, they pretty much all got reimbursed in one way or another..... be them on the blu team..... or the red. I feel sorry for a lot of people here... but the studios are NOT included on that list.

put the blame where it is due.... squarely on the backs of the studios

Rubbish. Put it where it belongs, on Microsoft. Everybody wanted to go Blue, and that includes Toshiba, but Microsoft pushed Tosh hard to stay HD DVD.

"but Microsoft pushed Tosh hard to stay HD DVD."

Are you kidding me??? Where do you come up with this stuff???

I suppose if M$ pushed Toshiba to diversifying into the farming industry, they would do that too? If M$ has such incredible powers of persuasion then how come HD DVD is where it is?

Toshiba did nothing that they did not want to do.

I see someone has started a class action against Samsung over their BD-01200 and its inability to play some movies. Hopefully if the case succeeds Samsung will sue Sony.

Bob.
===================
I just saw that article and am linking it here if anyone is interested in reading it.

John

Craftech, you maybe interested in this link; http://www.blu-ray.com/news/?id=931

Basely, it states that Samsung has a new update for the firmware issue concerning most if not all current problems.