NEW: DNxHD 444 now opens in Handbrake

musicvid10 wrote on 3/3/2014, 10:26 PM

I've been working with lu_zero, a determined libav developer, for what seems like a year now, and DNxHD 10 bit 444 Mb/s (actually 4:2:2) now opens in Handbrake, and probably any frontend using the newest libav 10 libraries. Implementation by ffmpeg should come at some point as well, if it's not already there.

What this means for Vegas editors includes:
Flawless transfer of 10 bit source to Handbrake with reduced decoder mangling.
Reduced color banding in gradients.
More accurate reporting of grading from 32 bit float projects.
Stunning output from CG and Animation sources.

** Disclaimer: If your video source doesn't meet the criteria just above, it is unlikely that you will see much difference in the output. Most video is
[EDITED]

By way of explanation, Handbrake output is still 8 bit 4:2:0 x264. However, its internal engine converts 10 bit 4:2:2 source much better than can be done in Vegas, visibly reducing subsampling artifacts and banding. This, along with the acknowledged decomb and resizing advantages Handbrake already has to offer, make it a natural for first-tier editors who are encoding for mass delivery.

The codec was developed for Arri Alexa acquisition, but is a very worthy intermediate for editors, given improved door-to-door compatibility.
In all fairness, the same can be accomplished with a 10 bit Sony YUV intermediate from Vegas, but at three times the file size [edited].

You need a Handbrake nightly build and Avid LE 2.3.8 or better in order to play with this new import capability.
http://forum.handbrake.fr/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=15901
http://avid.force.com/pkb/articles/en_US/download/Avid-Codecs-LE-2-3-9

Comments

royfphoto wrote on 3/4/2014, 6:44 AM

Your long and tireless effort to make DNxHD the gold standard step for rendering is appreciated, I do wish Vegas would accept/allow the MFX version.
So after all this time since the Vegas>DNxHD>Handbrake tutorial do you have further tweaks to the Handbrake settings for YouTube? I'm sure the YouTube encoder has gone through many iterations; as the go-to guy for keeping up with HB/YT developments nightly's.:
Specifically: 1080/ 30fps progressive DNxHD 10 bit 444 Mb/s, what would your CURRENT Handbrake settings be for YouTube?

musicvid10 wrote on 3/4/2014, 8:26 AM

I believe Premiere supports the Avid MXF format, but it is licensed.

Great question regarding changes in YouTube and Handbrake.
Right now, without having revisited all of my earlier tests, I am using custom settings similar to this.

level=4.0:mixed-refs=0:vbv-bufsize=20000:vbv-maxrate=16000:rc-lookahead=10:b-pyramid=none:weightp=0:me=umh:subme=2:8x8dct=0:trellis=0:deblock=-1,0

These settings assume you are starting with. the Normal preset.

There are really two schools of thought on this, mainly affecting large uploads. My dumbed-down settings favor quicker encoding but slower uploads (larger files), while high-profile advocates sacrifice encoding speed for slightly smaller files.

Other tips:
Use Web Optimized. When in doubt, use Web Optimized.
Don't use faac audio. The others sound better.
Use constant frame rate.
Level your video to 16-235.
You can try vbv-maxrate=20000 if your video contains fast motion. This may increase playback stutter.

Maybe this summer I'll have time to revisit the tutorial. It certainly is due for an overhaul.

Laurence wrote on 3/4/2014, 8:57 AM

Just to be clear, If Vegas renders a 10 bit format, it is actually 8 bit video with two zeros at the least significant bit end. No big deal in Handbrake because it is likely just throwing away those two last bits anyway.

Just pointing this out to say that while it is good that Handbrake now supports this format, I really don't see much advantage to it for Vegas users right now. Yes the output would be excellent, but it is not tempting me away from my current XDcam mp4 renders into Handbrake workflow, which is also excellent and works with far smaller file sizes.

Laurence wrote on 3/4/2014, 9:05 AM

The weakest part of Handbrake in my opinion is the audio. When I do handbrake renders for Youtube or Vimeo I typically set the audio bitrate up to it's highest available option and even that isn't as good as it could be. What are your recommendations for getting the best audio out of a Handbrake render?

musicvid10 wrote on 3/4/2014, 9:36 AM

Quite agree on the audio.
I'm currently using FDK-AAC audio in Handbrake, as you said at a high bitrate.
I quite like the results from my recitals, and so do the musicians.
Handbrake recently added AVCodec, but it's still under developer. Shows promise.
Either are noticeably better than FAAC.
WRT Youtube, it still downsamples audio to 160 Kb/s afaik ;?(

It's not that AAC is a bad format, it's that open-source encoders are limited in number and development assets.
Before Handbrake added FDK (which is Fraunhoffer), I was muxing Nero AAC using YAMB, but the alignment was a PITA.

Be sure to encode PCM with your DNxHD intermediate (it's not the default; one has to set it by hand).

Laurence, I hope you'll give one of the Handbrake nightly builds a spin with DNxHD (any template), and see if you're still getting the glitches you reported a while back. They (libav and HB) have worked really hard at improving it, some of it at my urging.
;?)

OldSmoke wrote on 3/4/2014, 10:46 AM

My current issue with DnxHD is that it doesn't support 1080 60p which is what I currently shoot. I don't think it is a big deal as I can render to 30p and then use HB but it would be nice to get full 60p out of Vegas and it would be nice if YT or others would support it too.

musicvid10 wrote on 3/4/2014, 11:54 AM

" it would be nice to get full 60p out of Vegas"
This was covered some time back:

Using 60p source in a 60p project,
1. Choose a 29.97p DNxHD template
2. Enter 59.940 on the Video tab.
3. Render.

Remember, the bitrate will be double the template value, because there are twice as many frames.

OldSmoke wrote on 3/4/2014, 12:07 PM

Thanks! This is great! I always thought the template must be in sync with the codec configuration and there is no 1080 59.94p setting for it.

All we need now is YT play 60p but it works well for my in-House distribution.

musicvid10 wrote on 3/4/2014, 12:29 PM

Some DNxHD template properties can be overridden by the Video tab; some cannot.

Julius_ wrote on 3/4/2014, 1:49 PM

I'm willing to try this out since I have some "down time"...will the new codec install overwrite my existing ones? (don't want to mess up what is working now).

Also, what do you mean by:
"Be sure to encode PCM with your DNxHD intermediate (it's not the default; one has to set it by hand)." Where is that?

Thanks

Julius_ wrote on 3/4/2014, 2:09 PM

While trying to instal the nightly handbrake version, it says that Handbrake is already installed and I have to de-install it....not sure I want to.

musicvid10 wrote on 3/4/2014, 2:38 PM

You don't have to.
Install to a different folder.
I currently have four versions on my system.
Some of your custom presets may not carry over.

Julius_ wrote on 3/4/2014, 3:50 PM

Ok thanks, new nightly version installed okay on my vista box, and I also installed the new Avid-Codecs-LE-2-3-9.

I went into Media Player (under help) to verify that I am using the right version and can't see any DNxHD codec

Where else can I see that I am using the Avid-Codecs-LE-2-3-9 version?

Thanks again.
(I tried running ffdshow but got a rundll error

Julius_ wrote on 3/4/2014, 4:00 PM

Nevermind, I found it....under Program and Features (Uninstall or change program), go to Avid Codec and I had to add the version tab to see it..all okay..sorry for spam.

cold ones wrote on 3/4/2014, 5:00 PM

I've installed v2.3.9 (verified in Programs & Features control panel), but when I click Configure in the Vegas Quicktime render dialog box it says v2.3.7. Anyone else see this?

musicvid10 wrote on 3/4/2014, 7:03 PM

Does it have the 444 templates?
They are not in 2.3.7.

NormanPCN wrote on 3/4/2014, 7:25 PM

I have the same situation. I had 2.3.8 installed and the configure dialog stated 2.3.7. I updated to 2.3.9 and the configure dialog still says 2.3.7.

I do see 10-bit 444 templates.

All the Avid codecs in \Program Files (x86)\Quicktime\QtComponents folder seem to be current. Same date time period as the 2.3.9 install program. There is about a year difference between 2.3.8 and 2.3.9.

I just assumed that someone forgot to update that text string with the recent revisions.

musicvid10 wrote on 3/4/2014, 8:49 PM

"

Yup.
Another point for clarity, 2.3.8 and 2.3.9 are identical unless you also have Avid Media Composer installed.

Julius_ wrote on 3/4/2014, 10:05 PM

Here are my findings so far.

Installed the V2.3.9 and the new nightly build handbrake (svn6098). I did lose my presets from my "production" handbrake even when I installed it in a new folder, but when I created them in the nightly build version and I went back to the "production" version, it was there (from the new one I created in the night version).

Anyways, in Vegas, I picked the DNxHD 1080p/29.97 444 10 bit and it rendered a mov file at 3.8gigs for a 1min 11sec clip.

Used the nightly handbrake version and did my usual steps from the "better method" in this now famous tutorial:

I couldn't do all the steps because the "Advance" tab is no longer there, and the file output was 123 megs. (wow)

Uploaded to vimeo and used the 1080p viewing (instead of 720p)
Results are here:
https://vimeo.com/88208244

Now, I still have the old handbrake 8bit results with 720p viewing here to compare.
https://vimeo.com/69055836

Not much of a difference I see. The 8-bit version file size was only 77 megs.

Hope this helps.

musicvid10 wrote on 3/4/2014, 10:14 PM

Julius,

-- The "Advanced" tab has been prequalified with a check box labeled "Use Advanced Settings" on the Video tab.
-- Why the size comparison, if one video is 720p and the other is 1080p?

-- Is your source video 10 bit 4:2:2? You didn't say.
-- Are you doing 32 bit color grading in Vegas?
-- Are there gradients in your source for comparison?
-- Are you using 10 bit CG or animation?

In any event, we are seeing different settings, resolutions, and reprocessing by Vimeo in both cases; however, the visible banding during the final fade is less noticeable in the 444 version than in the original.

Julius_ wrote on 3/4/2014, 10:43 PM

Thanks...

Your gonna have to hold my hand on this one... :)

Is your source video 10 bit 4:2:2? You didn't say.
I think it's 4:2:0. It was shot with a canon dslr 7d without magic lattern

Are you doing 32 bit color grading in Vegas?
I did do the levels..Computer RGB to Studio RGB if that's what you mean.

-- Are there gradients in your source for comparison?
No, I wanted to compare with the footage from my current workflow

-- Are you using 10 bit CG or animation?
No, but that clip does have some magic bullet presets and some basic text.

musicvid10 wrote on 3/4/2014, 10:51 PM

Julius, sorry to say, this technique is probably not going to be of much benefit you. It will just make bigger intermediate files. I have added a disclaimer to the original post.

The advantages of a 10 bit intermediate in this case, are to get it past the Vegas engine to Handbrake for downsampling, not to improve on 8 bit source.

It's a common misconception that has been debated in other contexts in this forum, and has become a source of persistent urban myth on the internet . . .
Still looking into Laurence's first post.

musicvid10 wrote on 3/5/2014, 12:24 AM

This is what I'm seeing, using a generated gradient in Vegas 8.
This is going to be worth it, at least for some.
It's exciting to me to be able to do so without buying a huge hard drive to render intermediates.

8 bit output from Vegas (Mainconcept):

8 bit output from Handbrake (10 bit intermediate from Vegas).

musicvid10 wrote on 3/5/2014, 10:35 AM

A quick comparison between Sony YUV 10 bit and DNxHD 444 intermediates:

Rendering is slower with DNxHD, by about 50% on my old laptop.
;?(

File size with YUV 10 bit is 10 GB per minute, or 600 GB per hour.
File size with DNxHD 444 is 3.33 GB per minute, or 200 GB per hour.
;?)