New DVD-Camcorder BY SONY

Wolfgang S. wrote on 8/6/2004, 5:03 AM

There is a bunch of new camcorders, like the DCR-DVD 201 and others, recording mpeg-2 files to small DVDs.

The audio recording is done with Dolby Digital AC-3 (2 channel) stereo. This audio format cannot be imported in Vegas at all - but also not in other major NLEs like Premiere Adobe, Uleads MediaStudio or Canopus Edius.

I am aware that these camcordes are not the "best" choice for NLEs at all - but my impression is that Sony should come up with an update, allowing the import of this AC-3 Format.

In addition, if cutting mpegs becomes more and more important, it will be also important that a cut in an mpeg-event will not force to render the total event new - but only the GOPs changed by the cut/or the transition.

Today, there are tools like womble that is able to import AC-3. However, there are more tools now that are able to cut mpegs, without re-render the whole clip (like womble, Edius, een Pinnacle Studio!).

So, do we believe that this will be an important product development at all?

Comments

farss wrote on 8/6/2004, 5:24 AM

They are a disaster, big time!
Yes they record ac3, but wait, it includes non standard data blocks so many software based DVD players will not play the audio. Also to get tools like BeSweet to convert the audio you have to run it through ac3fix first.
And there does seem to be something odd about the mpeg-2 as well, it produces some odd motion artifacts with Vegas.

Quite apart from all that, it's a VERY expensive way to record video. Those little DVDs cost around $30 here and they only hold 20 mins of video, a MiniDV tape costs under $10 and holds 60 minutes.

And also if you don't finalise the DVD nothing will play it and a PC will just see it as a blank disk.

I've spent hours trying to grapple with DVDs recorded in these cameras. They are probably fine IF (BIG IF) you never want to do anything with the video. But for not much more you could buy a cheap MiniDV camcorder and a STB DVD recorder, your video is still easily editable in any NLE, you can copy the tape to DVD in the STB burner onto vastly cheaper DVDs that hold much more video.

First it was MicroMV and now these.

Best suggestion I've had if you ever need to edit the video is play it out of a DVD player and capture that back into the PC.

Wolfgang S. wrote on 8/6/2004, 5:36 AM

I had only a small clip and I used headAC3he to convert the clip to mp2, mp3 or wav - after demuxing it with TMPGenc.

I am a fan of DV-avi tape - but the questions come up in different forums at the moment.

farss wrote on 8/6/2004, 5:50 AM

I've tried demuxing with TMPEnc but found the resulting files were truncated. It seeems when many of the demuxing / decoding tools hit the non standard data blocks they give up. DVD2AVI had similar problems from memory.

Bob.

mhbstevens wrote on 8/6/2004, 2:32 PM

MiniDV or DVCAM is the ONLY way to go. All other roads will lead to tears and the nashing of teeth.

Wolfgang S. wrote on 8/7/2004, 1:02 AM

Also, the new Sony DCR-HC-1000 will come up with Dolby 5.1 Surround Sound - but will also have firewire.

It will be interesting to see if Vegas supports the import of that audio format (not at the moment, I think).

farss wrote on 8/7/2004, 2:02 AM

The DCR-HC-100 does NOT record 5.1 surround sound!
It can record 4 tracks of audio in 12bit/32KHz. This is nothing new.
About all they've given you is an optional 'surround' microphone that can feed those 4 channels. With some optional software you CAN convert that into a 5.1 mix (shudder).
This is just more marketing flim flam to fool the mugs. Trying to get decent audio out of consummer cameras is bad enough without recording in 12/32K, your headroom is seriously reduced compared to 16/48K. So now you get a choice, reasonable audio in two channels or worse quality that can surround you for a truly aweful sonic experience.

Wolfgang S. wrote on 8/7/2004, 3:16 AM

Fine, in Europe this camcorder is not sold yet. But - how does Vegas capture such an audio format?

farss wrote on 8/7/2004, 3:43 AM

I don't think it will!
However there's plenty of cheap solutions, Scenalyser live will do it, I think it's around USD30. I'm not certain of the details as to how it does it but I suspect it captures the other channels into a separate .wav file. You can just drag that in as the second audio track.
You could then split these into four separate tracks, and use the surround panner to assign them to the 4 quadrants. You might need to do a bit of fiddling to create a front centre channel for any dialogue. I'd also suggest using Vegas to resample the tracks uo to 16/48K before you did anything to the audio.

The ability to record 4 tracks at 12/32K was to handle things like have M/E in stereo with a separate dialogue track for foreign language conversion. It's adequate once all the levels are correct and you don't need much headroom.

But even apart from those issues, I cannot see how a mic on a camera can capture a surround image. If it's on a tripod and no one nearby then you've maybe got a chance, held up to your head, forget it. A much better solution is another audio recorder and stereo mic to handle the two rear channels.
I know someone like Audio Technica makes a decent surround mic, kind of a phased array with four condensor elements but it costs more than this camera. HHB make units that record to DVD for capturing surround sound but they cost big time! A simple MiniDisc recorder would hold sync well enough to record the extra channels and then you're not compromising the main audio recording on the camera.

Bob.

Wolfgang S. wrote on 8/7/2004, 5:07 AM

ScLive captures different audio tracks - that was new for me. Yes, you are right, it captures in two channels, the second one in a separate *.wav file if you want.

Ok, then it is easy to handle in Vegas.

The question, if it makes sense to record 4 audio tracks is very similar to the question, if it makes sense to capure AC3-stereo.

farss wrote on 8/7/2004, 5:22 AM

But the camera doesn't record ac3!
In fact apart from the DVD cameras nothing records ac3, for a very good reason. It's a lossy format, never designed as a recording medium, only as an final output compression system.
ac3 isn't just a number of audio channels, it's an entire compression system, the Dolby whitepaper on how to do a correct ac3 encode runs to around 150 pages.
Why do the DVD cameras use it?
Well they need to limit the bitrate on the video stream else the DVDs will have problems playing. To leave as much data available for the video and bear in mind they're encoding at CBR, single pass, using ac3 saves a lot of bandwidth.
The pro gear used to record multiple audio tracks for later use in surround sound uses BWF files. These contain discreet audio channels with close to infinite separation. In post these can be separated into discreet tracks and the whole process is lossless.

Bob.