New FX Controls (Alien)

Joshalot wrote on 6/29/2009, 3:59 PM
What do others think about the new UI Sony is using in FX like Rays, ProTitler, etc.
I don't like them at all. They are a significant deviation from standard windows controls. I can understand the desire to have "prettier" UI. However, these dont even look like Windows themed controls. ( suspect using those would have yielded better results)

The new UI is far less usable than the old. Usability is much more important to me than shiny sliders.

Key drawbacks:

No Accessibility. Common keystrokes dont work.

I cant use my arrow keys to easily adjust values

No color selector (or dropper). In protitler, i cant see a colormap to pick from.

Having to move sliders around in HSV or RGB is too complicated. (i cant see the color until i move the sliders)

No, being able to type the value into the numeric field is lame. Do you really expect me to know the RGB or HSV values? The old controls let me see the values based on the colors I see in the map.

No automation or control surface adjustments

Keyframe UI is completely non-intuitive.

Titler: I cant keyframe incremental text like i can with the older sony text generator. (think typewriter effect)

new features have been added at the expense of making common scenarios too complicated.

SLOW!!!!



Comments

TheHappyFriar wrote on 6/29/2009, 4:14 PM
protype hasn't changed since it's first release.

But hey, people complained the UI looked dated. The answer was presented. No going back now.
Chienworks wrote on 6/29/2009, 5:00 PM
I never complained about the old UI. I think it was perfect and needed no stylistic improvements.

I'll have to admit, the UI for Protype is so convoluted and unintuitive that i gave up after a couple days of not accomplishing anything, and never went back to it. It wasn't worth the brain ache.
farss wrote on 6/29/2009, 5:04 PM
"What do others think about the new UI Sony is using in FX like Rays, ProTitler, etc."

Compared to the traditional ones, horrid. Then again they're not the work of SCS and New Blue do write their plugs to work in more than Vegas. In other hosts such as AE they sure look/feel pretty twee compared to the fare from other 3rd party developers.

I'd like to see ALL the plugins in Vegas harmonised and a change to the way FX controls work in AE would get my vote. This really applies to FXs that have a lot of controls, being able to minimise the sliders and have controls nested makes life that much easier when screen real estate is at a premium and it sure is when working with HD.

Bob.
SuperG wrote on 6/29/2009, 9:34 PM
On ProType, I think most people figure it is what it is and leave it at that.

But some of us would have expected that the feedback from that would have had some effect on future directions since then.
blink3times wrote on 6/30/2009, 3:05 AM
I can deal with the Rays or Pro titler UI's.... it's the round knobs and such on New Blue and other similar vst's... filters....etc, that I can't stand. Lock onto them with the mouse..... then which way do you go??? Left... Right... Up... Down???

At least with a slider there's no guessing games.
ushere wrote on 6/30/2009, 4:35 AM
i'm with all of you on this -

pro type ui is an abomination - no relationship to anything else, or real life working come to that.

new blue - the knobs are a bad joke, as b3t points out, where the f am i going? and there's not even a 'link' to the arrow keys....

still, i've just got my head around my tv remote after a couple of years, so there's hope for me yet......
JohnnyRoy wrote on 6/30/2009, 6:31 AM
> new blue - the knobs are a bad joke, as b3t points out, where the f am i going? and there's not even a 'link' to the arrow keys....

If you click on the "i" button in any NewBlue FX you'll get the About box which has an option Up / Down mouse control of circular knobs. This essentially makes the circular knobs respond as if they are vertical sliders. I find this much easier to use.

These circular knobs are very common in audio applications so I never really gave them a second thought. Those of you who don't like them should never become and audio engineer. ;-)

As for the new Sony FX they are the Radiance plug-ins created by Velvetmatter. So SCS is not responsible for the interface. I suspect that the ProType Titler was a similar deal.

I agree it would be nice if Sony had a common interface for all plug-ins like After Effects does. It really helps usability a lot.

~jr
nedski wrote on 6/30/2009, 3:18 PM
Well if you think the NewBlue UI is difficult try using Boris FX filters in Vegas, they're darn near useless to me!

I still can't figure out how to preview a Boris FX video in Vegas and I still don't understand even how to get an event's length in Boris. I've read the very terse documentation where Boris mentions how to use the effects in Vegas, they sort of blame Vegas for the difficulties, but that's pretty much BS, NewBlue's filters work seamlessly in Vegas, both 32 AND 64 bit versions!

The Boris FX filters are very nice and they work just fine in After Effects. I wish they would work that well in Vegas. I have a love/HATE relationship with After Effects. ;-)
Chienworks wrote on 6/30/2009, 6:27 PM
Circular knobs vs. sliders. Another huge pity. The circular knobs are there for precisely two reasons. First, those who come from a hardware background see them and feel comfortable for the first 5 minutes because they look familiar. Second, they carry an undeniable cool factor for the first 5 minutes.

However, starting at minute 6 or there abouts, after getting past the familiarity and the coolness, the users are then saddled with a needlessly difficult to use control for no good reason other than marketing. Users are happy for 5 minutes and then suffer for the rest of their existence because of this marketing choice.

If instead the designers used linear sliders, true they'd have to face that 5 minute hurdle and give some compelling reason to get new users to keep looking. But, after that 5 minute hurdle is over then they have a simple and highly usable control ever afterwards.

I know a lot of people rag on Microsoft's Windows 3/95 interface style. However, what most don't realize is that Microsoft spent millions and invested probably hundreds of thousands of hours watching and studying how people best interact with a GUI. The result is that extremely functional, easy to use, but stodgy rectangular grey field of controls that people call now call dated and ugly. The problem is, almost anything done to change them ends up detracting from the usefulness and often makes them less useful.

There's a reason that the old controls look and work the way they do, and that reason is because they were the best option for making the software as easy to use and making users as productive as possible. This is why Windows users are usually faster and more productive than Mac users; the UI simply works better. Heck, most of the Linux Gnome users i know eventually end up choosing the Redmond option for the same reason. They don't care that it's based on Microsoft Windows. They just realize it works best.

Now, what's wrong with that?
JohnnyRoy wrote on 6/30/2009, 9:00 PM
> I've read the very terse documentation where Boris mentions how to use the effects in Vegas, they sort of blame Vegas for the difficulties, but that's pretty much BS, NewBlue's filters work seamlessly in Vegas, both 32 AND 64 bit versions!

Actually it's not BS at all. The Vegas SDK does not tell the plug-ins what the project properties are or how long a clip is. It only feeds the plug-in one frame at a time which is why plug-ins that require temporal data don't work in Vegas because there is no way to compare the previous/next frames. The NewBlue FX's don't need to know how long a clip is, they just process each frame they are given. It's the nature of the Boris plug-ins with it's own timeline that requires a higher level of functionality and Vegas does not provide this.

What you need to do is set the length manually when you are in Boris.

~jr
nedski wrote on 6/30/2009, 9:33 PM
JR, you said "What you need to do is set the length manually when you are in Boris."

I've read the documentation a few times and I just can't get it to work! :-(
Do you know where there is a comprehensive Boris FX & Vegas for Dummies tutorial? ;-)
I've searched the web but I haven't found anything good enough for my puny brain.

By BS, I meant that I wish Boris would make a version of their filters to work easier in Vegas either by dumbing them down or making them a lot smarter. And of course they should work with 64 bit Vegas too.

I really like how well the Boris chromakey filters work, but I couldn't make them work inside of Vegas. They work easily in After Effects as I mentioned, I just hate using AE for video.
Grazie wrote on 7/1/2009, 1:57 AM
1] I'd like SCS to get some kind of template for 3rd Pluggers get to design their GUI to

2] I'd ALSO like that the knobs on 3rd Plugs work with the Mouse Wheel -

Knobs = Wheels = Rotation = No-Brainer?

Yes, sliders are great, but for those of use that DO have rodent wheels? Come to that, how about the same for the CSP???

Grazie
LoTN wrote on 7/1/2009, 12:31 PM
I am not a fan of rotary knobs even if I understand the vast majority of control surfaces have plenty of them. Being from the IT sphere, I feel more comfortables with sliders.

What is wrong with these FX controls:
* Very bad response time of the UI
* no way to fine tune the effects using Ctrl+ mouse wheel
Jay Gladwell wrote on 7/1/2009, 2:42 PM

* no way to fine tune the effects using Ctrl+ mouse wheel

You realize you can highlight the number values and use the L-R arrows keys to "fine tune," right?


LoTN wrote on 7/3/2009, 2:35 PM
Yes I know that but it is not very handy.

Now, tadaaaaam, I've found that the sliders callback DO accept the Ctrl Key as a modifier but the Ctrl key must be hit before dragging.

Not so bad :)
[r]Evolution wrote on 7/7/2009, 9:40 PM
Beauty is in the eye of the Beholder.
This Beholder thinks they are UGLY!

But this Beholder also thinks Premiere Pro CS4 & FCP6 are PRETTY.

Former user wrote on 7/8/2009, 11:27 AM
I work in Vegas, Sonar, Photoshop and After Effects, and very occasionally, with Combustion.

Vegas is my favourite interface, by far. It just works. It's not based on linear editing, it is exactly what it's supposed to be: an NLE. It's as if all the presuppositions about "I need two windows" and everything else weren't even part of the argument. ANY time I have to go back and use Premiere Pro or FCP, I just cringe...a whole body pucker with the lack of logic.

Sonar is so crammed with stuff there's almost no way around the button-jammed interface. It's nuts. But it does what it's supposed to - it's like Corel - they sell software by the pound - the interface, meh.

Photoshop is and will always be its own master, and After Effects is the same. I actually find ProTitler pretty easy to use, but experience with After Effects helps a lot...they use many of the same rudimentary conventions.

If you want to see a freaky, weird, poorly considered interface: Combustion. It's just the weirdest thing. I've taken courses, tutorials, read books. If I put it down for a couple of months and come back, it's like having to relearn the whole thing. It's just crazy (which is especially frustrating because it's so good at particle and effects compositing stuff).

In the end, plug-ins need to be understood that they, in large part, exist in a vacuum. They have to be platform agnostic, and they have to try to attract editors and producers attention. So BlueFx goes with sort of a funky minimalist euro look. Whatever. It's just an interface...they have to make certain allowances and assumptions for what EVERYONE will understand, regardless of platform.

Does anyone remember Metatools software? They didn't give you a manual. You had to "discover" how to use the interface (sometimes without tooltips). Then, as you revealed functions and used them, THEN new functions would begin to appear. It was VERY trippy...but Metatools was also VERY philosophical about their interface: they believe it should be part of the experience. Of course, I never made my living having experiences while trying to complete a project - which is bourne out by the fact that, oh, where is Metatools now? I think they're making aps for the iPhone or something.