I have no experience with AVCHD, but I understand from the comments on this board that the compression method is so complex even a quad-core PC can have problems keeping up. But read up about GearShift. You can use it to make DV proxies and then work with the proxies. When you're finished, GearShift will duplicate your DV results in the original AVCHD files. Works great for me with HDV; I'm sure it will work just as well with AVCHD.

Life, I looked at your machine specs, and it's doubtful that you'll be able to preview HDV or AVCHD on the timeline, if you don't use some tricks. So I recommend you check out VASST's GearShift product. I have not used it myself, but I have used their UpShift product, which converts AVCHD files into HDV format. It's handy, but the application is being updated at this time. But the good news for you is that (I believe) you need GearShift anyway, and not UpShift. So I'd check it out at http://www.vasst.com/gearshift/this link[/link].

I have basically heard nothing but good things about GearShift, so I think it would probably work very well for your needs. It's certainly work a look-see anyway...

TB

Thanx to all for the feedback...I have been to the Vasst site and will become a GearShift user. I use lots of effects and filters on my powered paragliding flying videos, so I have decided to build a new monster machine to tackle this AVCHD edit/render animal. I will use the brand new Intel Nehalem dual quad core (yep, 8 cores), tons of RAM and SSD (solid state disks (RAM) ) disk drives for both programs and data. Testing shows that it will do a FULL BOOT in less than 7 seconds, including loading all startup apps that I like to have in memory. I have a 30" monitor, so I'll need the killer video card to satisfy my peeps.

15k SAS drives FibreChannel connected will make up the archive system for the video files, and 64-bit Vista tuned for performance mode will be the OS...

Well...wadayathink? Will I still need GearShift? Won't build the machine for another 2 months until the Nahalem are in stable production, so I'll use Vasst GS in the meantime.

Again, thanx to all for the feedback.

"Well...wadayathink? Will I still need GearShift? "

If you're talking about lots of effects..... probably. just putting a cartooner effect for example on a avchd clip is enough to bog down even the more expensive machines. But when you start talking about multiple layer composting.... forget it. When people get into this avchd they don't quite understand what a pain it is on the time line. By far the best thing to do with avchd is use gearshift or something similar.... even something like Cineform Neo which would convert your avchd to a lossless avi intermediate.

Well, actually version 8.1 of Vegas does pretty good with AVCHD; certainly better than version 8c does. Although the plug-in support isn't up to speed yet, you might still try that version on a 64-bit OS first. But if you have a fast machine, then you probably won't need GearShift as much as UpShift--it's only role is to transcode AVCHD files into HDV. That being said, there are a few bugs in the version currently being sold, but there is a new beta version being tested now and i have heard it's very nice. I can't wait for the new version, as the HDV files are much easier to edit in Vegas 8c.

It sounds like quite a PC you're planning to build though. Good luck with it!

TB

Blink - Thanx
"By far the best thing to do with avchd is use gearshift or something similar..."

How do you determine the best int format? GS vs neo?

tcbetka - Thanx to you as well.
"transcode AVCHD files into HDV"

Again, how do you determine best int format? I would like to edit in some int format that is REAL easy on the system, then let the final render do it's lengthy thing. I use HDV now and it runs fine on my system, is it the best int form?

Well, I personally don't worry about an intermediate type--other than a lower bitrate HDV file. UpShift gives you the ability to transcode to various bitrates, 10Mbps is the lowest and that isn't that much higher than plain old DV. So I simply transcode to 10 or 12 Mbps files, and process them on the timeline. Basically the process is the same idea as GearShift, from what others have told me (never used GearShift myself).

TB

My machine will process my HDV files intact...edit and render, so this AVCHD choking thing is new to me. What do you do? Transcode all of the clips in your project to the lower bitrate for editing? Then how do you apply the edit changes to the full-strength (original) source files for the final render?

Truthfully?

I simply use version 8.1 on Vista 64-bit. I don't use any plug-ins besides what comes bundled with Vegas yet anyway, so 8.1 works like a charm for me. There are some bugs (no video capture preview, for one) that might require a work-around, but 8.1 allows me to process AVCHD painlessly. The sub-10fps rates in 8c become 28+ frames per second in 8.1...

I tried UpShift and it does work, but there are issues with the current release. However the beta version is much better, but I don't think it's out just yet. (It wasn't earlier this week anyway.) But when it is available, I'll use that. So if you have an empty hard drive, or want to live dangerously with a Vista partition on your XP drive, I'd seriously consider installing a 64-bit OS like Vista. It's actually great, although I hate to admit it...lol. My 32-bit Vista is ugly and I was very hesitant to install the 64-bit version, but SP1 apparently made a world of difference and now I don't even boot to XP 32 anymore.

My only regret is that I only used a 80GB hard drive to install Vista 64, as it's already got 60GB on it! I will likely have to just bit the bullet an install another 250GB drive, and reinstall Vista--then transfer everything over. Anyway, I think version 8.1 might ease your concerns about AVCHD files.

TB

EDIT: Just realized that I didn't answer your last question... All you do is transcode two copies of the same AVCHD file using UpShift (or GearShift). The first copy is at 10Mbps, and the second is at, say 25Mbps (full HDV bitrate for 1920x1080). You leave them named identically (done by default in UpShift) and just put them in different places. You point Vegas to the 10Mbps files to do your work, and then just copy the 25Mbps files into that directory at the end. The old "bait & switch" for NLEs. Because the NLE is non-destructive, your edits haven't touched the original 10Mbps files--so they are in fact identical to the 25Mbps files, other than the resolution. Proxy file editing, in a nutshell.

LIfeIsPhun: "I will use the brand new Intel Nehalem dual quad core (yep, 8 cores), tons of RAM and SSD (solid state disks (RAM) ) disk drives for both programs and data. Testing shows that it will do a FULL BOOT in less than 7 seconds, including loading all startup apps that I like to have in memory. I have a 30" monitor, so I'll need the killer video card to satisfy my peeps."

Stay in touch on this one. I'm planning on building a similar machine next year and I'm sure that many on this forum would be interested in your selection process for the motherboard, drives, graphics card, memory etc. Certainly worth it's own thread when you start to make your key decisions.

BTW, what was once Nehalem is now Core i7. And don't hold me to it but I think the 8 core motherboards are going to come out sometime later than the 4 cores.

InterceptPoint: Yes, the duals are not coming out until January but I will be assembling the components during December anticipating the first release. Also, the duals require a matched set of the Xeon version of the Core i7. That is why it will be so $$$.

It is all worth it however. The memory bandwidth will be unlike any other we have seen running Vista. Welcome to a leap in performance!

tcbetka: "Proxy file editing, in a nutshell."

Thanx. I am now the proud owner of UpShift (thanx to your posting of they fixed suff) AND Ultimate S Pro which I wish I would have know about before.

Now my question...Why convert my original source AVCHD file to a second copy as HDV? I understand the 10Mbps version, but why the 25Mbps copy?

Can't I edit using the 10, then use Ultimate S Pro : Render : Media Swapper to do the flip/flopping of the proxy files back to AVCHD for the final render?

BTW: Thanx a BUNCH for the VASST tool tips.

Well, I am not familiar with Ultimate S Pro, so I can't tell you if that's a good plan or not. But as far as the 10 & 25Mbps HDV files, that was simply an example. As I understand it, 25Mbps is the maximum bit rate for HDV files, and that's at 1920x1080. (If the pixel resolution is 1440x1080, its 19Mbps.) But the point is that transcoding an AVCHD file at 10Mbps gives you the file with the least "resolution"--thus it's the easiest to edit on the timeline. But that same file compromises the resolution of a 25 (or 19) Mbps file, and thus you might want to switch it with one of a higher bitrate before you render out your work. At least that's the way I understand it.

But these would be great questions for JohnnyRoy, as he's intimately involved with all those VASST products. Glad to hear UpShift works for you, as the new version really seems to work well.

TB

> Can't I edit using the 10, then use Ultimate S Pro : Render : Media Swapper to do the flip/flopping of the proxy files back to AVCHD for the final render?

Yes. The Render tab of Ultimate S Pro has all of the functionality of GearShift and more. The Media Swapper will allow you to set up any type of swaps that you'd like.

To answer your earlier questions about 8-cores and AVCHD it won't make any difference for working in Vegas. I don't believe that preview is not multi-threaded so it will only use one of the 8 cores. :( You will only see an improvement in rendering to file.

I've had my eye on 8-cores as well. I was going to build a Skulltrail like Jeremy (jrazz) did but I haven't pulled the trigger yet. Might wait for 8-cores on one chip.

~jr

Hey JR... I looked at the site for US Pro, but there really isn't much product detail, in terms of what it actually does. I apologize, but I simply don't know what good it would do for me. I know everyone really likes it, but I don't know why...

So I went searching on the VASST site and ran across this http://www.vasst.com/product.aspx?id=d51c2f8d-00a0-4976-8a1a-3ab01fee6db7description[/link] of Ultimate S 3.1, and was wondering if US Pro had pretty much the same functionality?

Thanks.

TB

Life:

I have switched over to all AVCHD cameras and have been editing it for about a month now.

1. Your machine specs. are low for any type of editing IMO. A Q6600 based machine is dirt cheap and the minimum I would use.

2. A Quad core machine will still stutter on the preview quite a bit, but that has no effect on the render.

For Quad cores:
A. Rendering AVCHD to DV is quick and easy.
B. Rendering AVCHD to HDV is very slow.

Except for very glitchy preview of AVCHD where you have a hard time knowing where to cut, I would not worry about it. The render will be fine. I am getting excellent AVCHD results.

You do need a new machine though.

Jeff9329: Thanx.

After spending 2 days now with the idea of proxy files...it sucks. Managing the mutiple images of the files is a pain in the butt, but glad I tried it. It has been something I have been wanting to do for a long time, but realize it is a workaround for not having a sufficient machine for my needs.

I fly powered paragliders, and have some spectacular low-light footage in HDV and AVCHD that will need all of the settings cranked way up to make up for the low-light conditions. The original footage is spectacular when played straight to a display/HDTV, but almost ANY render introduces noticeable artifacts, shimmers, and jaggies while flying low over glassy water just after sunset. Even if I set all SV render settings to what I think are the best settings.

Problem is that those settings are also just KILLING my outdated machine. I have already declared that I am going to build the killer machine, but I can't wait until Jan/Feb 2009 for the new mobos to support dual Core i7 processors. My new plan is to build 2 new machines. One with single Core i7 CPU that I can get my hands on in the next two week, and just get going on Vista 64. Can't wait. I am stalled on AVCHD until I get a new machine.

Thanx to ALL above for you input and feedback. When I get the first machine built, I'll post a notice and give you guys a little peek at my flying footage. It is a sport unlike ANYTHING you have experienced before in your life!

TB, I recently began working in 8.0c with AVCHD by my Sony SR11. Better playback in Preview and in general than I experienced with Pinnacle Studio 12 but still something less than (your word) "painless." I see your system specs show "more than 1 gig Ram." How much more? I also see 64 bit Vista and I'm wondering if that is the key to your satisfying experience with 8.1 or if you have like 8 gigs of ram and that is the key or all of the above. Tonight a Gateway tech tells me in live chat that switching from Vista 32 to 64 is no improved performance and lots of problems. I think he doesn't know what he's talking about, since 64 bit will be able to access from 1 gig up to over 128 gigs of ram. I know that that is what is claimed anyhoo. What I'm trying to get from you here is your input about getting to that "painless" zone in my experience with AVCHD and Vegas Pro 8.0c. Thanks for the conversation!

Terry

Hey friends, just thought maybe my last post is out of place the way I did it. I'm really not replying to the original post but asking my own questions. Sorry, if so, please forgive.. Am new to the process. Others feel free to guide and correct me!

I would agree with your assessment about the guy's comments about 32-bit vs 64-bit Vista. IMO, he's just plain wrong! Obviously the system is going to make all the difference, and in my case...it did. So that's where the big secret is, at least in terms of comparing Vista 32 vs 64 bit OS.

My system is an Intel Q9450 quad core CPU OC'd from 2.66GHz to 3.2GHz. The motherboard is an Abit IP35 Pro XE with 8gb of Corsair XMS2 800MHz DDR2 RAM. I have a Corsair 750-watt PSU powering the whole thing. There are 5 hard drives for a total of 2TB storage, and I also run 2 DVD-RW drives. I run XP Pro 32 on one hard drive, and Vista 64 on another; I use the BIOS boot sequence feature to select the HD to boot to. I do not use a boot manager.

I ran the system for about an hour with 4gb RAM; the amount originally installed when XP Pro was loaded. I added Vista about a month after the machine was built, and then added an additional 4gb of RAM, simply because I had two open slots and it only cost me about $45 (incl. shipping) to do so. But Vista ran real nice with 4gb RAM, and Vegas ran fine as well. I didn't process anything complex, as I was just testing the system.

As far as AVCHD files go, yes...all my work with them is on version 8.1. The performance is so much better than with 8c (even on Vista 64), that it isn't even worth the effort. However now that UpShift is fine-tuned and working great, all of your AVCHD files should simply be converted to HDV format, and your AVCHD issues will be resolved. For $50, that's the cheapest and easiest thing you could do.

I have been testing the new beta version, and absolutely love it. The older version was fraught with bugs--but the developers REALLY listened to our complaints, because I cannot find any remaining issues. And tonight, just for kicks, I transcoded a 15 minute AVCHD volleyball clip (recorded with my SR11) using the new version. I then dropped the M2TS AVCHD file onto the timeline, with the M2T HDV file in the next track. Then I tested them each, head-to-head, in version 8c. The AVCHD file ran very poorly, with a minimum frame rate of about 4.8fps. But at that same point with the transcoded HDV file, I got a full 29.97fps, with barely a twitter of the fps readout! I am simply amazed! The NBFX folks have simply out-done themselves on this new version, IMHO.

So while I love building new systems, it can obviously get pricey. And given that UpShift now seems to function perfectly (at least as far as I can tell), the $50 price seems to be a much better way to deal with the AVCHD blues. I am not trying to convince you to not build a better system--but hey...this is a cheap, quick fix. At least go check it out--there's a free demo you can play with. The new version should be released later this week, if it hasn't been already.

TB

I was wondering about the Upshift process. When you color correct the HDV files, does it translate over well when you swap in the AVCHD files?

Bart

You would not swap in the AVCHD files; I suppose that theoretically you could, but I have never tried it. Although I you can probably do what you've suggested, I have simply converted two copies of the AVCHD file to two different bitrate HDV files: I use 10 & 25Mbps.

But as far as your second question, I suppose all the color correction and other effects would be applied to the AVCHD files...although again, I have never tried it. I know that using a lower resolution proxy and then swapping the file out with a higher resolution HDV file at the ends works exactly this way.

TB


EDIT: Ah...hold on a second. On second thought, it would NOT work as you've suggested. The two formats have different file extensions, and thus cannot be named the same; so thus you cannot use an HDV file as a proxy for an AVCHD file. The HDV files have a .m2t extension, while the AVCHD files have an m2ts extension. Therefore you will need to transcode two copies of the same AVCHD file as I outlined above.