But shouldn't the new .wav file (rendered with normalize on) have a
higher level than the original file? Of course, this is assuming that
the original file had no peaks at saturation, so that normalizing would
have increased it's level.

Yes, but if you render to a new .wav file after having normalized, shouldn't this become the base or default (Un-normalized) level of the new .wav file?

Otherwise, what would be the point in doing the normalization in the first place?

Mike

This is exactly my point. I did the normalization to get the peaks up to (in my case) -.2 db which did, indeed, increase the overall level very noticably. So, if this new level is not saved in the subsequently rendered new file, what would be the point in doing it?

Mike

Once you render the file as normalized, you don't need to normalize it again, or you would compound the normalization (which I don't think you want).

I guess I'm not explaining very clearly.

Shouldn't the normalized and newly rendered .wav file look different when loaded back into Vegas than the original, non-normalized file?

When I load it in it looks identical to the un-normalized file it was created from. That is, the level has been reset back to the lower values. The whole reason I did the normalization in the first place was to get the levels up to near max in the final output .wav file.

Do you see what I'm saying?

Hi UTAH,

I'm certainly not an expert, but once you've rendered your normalized soundfile, try removing the original one from the timeline, clean the media pool, and then explore to your new normalize soundfile, and place it in the timeline. If you're not sure that normalization is taking place, put the two files over or beside each other in the timeline and see if your new one has changed, ie. higher level. Also just for s&g, solo each one and watch your meters at a close zoom.

I've done all of the above. I've also loaded the two files into other players. They are identical in level and that level is way below the max it could be before the peaks clip (ie. the level the NORMALIZED original file WAS when I rendered it to form the second file).

And I did the rendering of the normalized file several times to make sure I wasn't screwing up somehow.

So, it sounds like you are saying the rendered normalized file should indeed have a higher level when loaded back into Vegas. So why isn't mine acting that way?

Thanks again for the replies.
Mike

are you making sure the bus/output is up at the peak you want before you normaliz

Boy, I'm not sure what you mean. I'm new. 8^|
Could you explain a bit?
Thanks
Mike

Wow Utah, I just read this thread from the beginning and it sure does seem like a lot of people are misunderstanding your question.

You are right the new file that you load in, should be at the normalized level because you normalized it and then rendered it to a NEW wave. Things you want to check which could be lowering the level.

1. Make sure the Track fader is set to 0dB, Vegas defaults to -10dB.
2. If you have any "Volume Graphs" on you'll want to make sure that is set to 0dB also.
3. Next check the Master out fader buss, this should also be at 0dB, it's located under the Mixer Tab.
4. Check to see if you're using any EQ. If you are EQing that Track, then this will effect the final output level also when you render. Bypass the EQ if you don't need it, by going to the Track FX's and uncheck the box.

If any of these are not set to 0dB or you are using any plugins, you may be decreasing the level after you normalized the original Wave event, which will effect the level of your rendered wave.

If these are all set to 0dB, then your new rendered wave should indeed match that of the normalized wave before you rendered. If not, then you have a problem.

Hope this finally answers your confusion,
Brian Franz

this is what i meant
Next check the Master out fader buss, this should also be at 0dB, it's located under the Mixer Tab.
it could be up higher than 0db if its not in the red.
make sure its loud in fader before you render

The Master Fader should NOT be higher than 0dB!!! If you normalize a Wave, you adjust the wave so that it goes to it's maximum digital level. If you then set the master fader at 0dB, then there is NO gain added, if you go past 0dB after you normalize, then you are gauranteed to distort the wave in some places. If you set all faders at 0dB as I previously described then the Wave will stay at the same level as you normalized to....0dB is "unity gain".

Regards,
Brian Franz

Brian,

Not only did you solve my problem but gave me a BUNCH of education to boot! It was the track fader causing the problem. I feel pretty stupid that I didn't think of that. Seems obvious now! 8^)
All of your other ideas were new concepts to me so I checked them all out too. They were all at 0 dB but now I know about them and what they do.
So, let me summarize what I think I know now:

Say I've got several tracks for which I've adjusted each track fader to give the desired overall sound. If I now want to render the final output .wav file but want it to be normalized up to, say -0.2 dB, would the best way to do this be to first render the file with all the current project settings and then load it back in to an empty project, set the track fader to 0, normalize it and render it one last time?

Thanks again Brian and everyone else for your great help in this forum.

Mike

I had the EXACT same problem as Utah...word for word those could have been my questions about the Normalize switch not holding.
Tech support at Sonic Foundry recommended this forum to me, and after trying your suggestions, everything is working just fine!
Thank you very, very much.

Mike E. in Ohio

The way you mentioned would work and wouldn't have too bad of results. The best way is to get your mix as you want it, like you mentioned. Now open up the mixer window and play your mix all the way through. Look at the master fader meter, at the top, there is a "peak level" that get's stored. You want to make sure this peak level is below 0dB as I mentioned before, otherwise some "peaks" may have gotten distorted. Now let's say your peak level reads -3dB after you play the mix all the way through. To get it to be normalized to -0.2dB you would now raise the master fader to +2.8dB, so now when you play the mix all the way through the "peak" will now read -0.2dB (ie -3dB + 2.8dB = -0.2dB) Very simple math. This way is better because it will illiminate having to reload your mix back in and then doing the normalize function and re-rendering. Normailazation is an additional process that will add noise, where as if you do it when you do your final render you're illiminating a process and getting the same results. Note, normalization won't add that much noise, but most of us audio guys are pretty anal about getting the best possible resolution and bit depths without adding additonal noise.

I'm happy to help out, I was an instructor in the field ,so I've been asked many of these questions by students, so I've had to do a lot of research to be able to answer a lot of these questions. I also had a very good instructor, who was one of the mastering engineers for Motown back in their hay days. Oh yeah, almost forgot, I have some experience in the field too :-).

Regards,
Brian Franz

I totally understand what you are saying. I didn't know how to adjust the final mix level so that the first render you do can be the last. Thanks for the great explanation.

Since we're on the subject, what I REALLY was trying to do was get all the cuts on my (to be) CD to SOUND the same loudness.
I found that if I just adjust the bigest peaks to be some constant distance below 0dB, I get very different sounding "loudness" files since some have a lot of range from the average level to the peaks and some are pretty much constant level with no loud peaks. So I was just doing it by "eyeball" and "ear" .
How do the pros do this so the different cuts on a record seem matched in loudness when you listen to them one after another?

Last question:
How much are you charging for this class in audio recording??? 8^)

Mike

The million dollar question you're really asking about is how do I "master" my songs? This is a lengthy explanation that I've done 100's of times on this forum and the Sound forge forum. I've explained in the past the need for VU meters in Sonic Foundry software for this purpose of matching up levels of volume between songs. This is because your ears hear volume on an "Average" level, this is also how a VU meter reacts to audio, it reads the "Average" level. So if you set all your songs at the same level on a VU meter, they will be very close to the same loudness. As you've noticed this isn't the case with a "peak" meter, which Vegas and Sound Forge uses. Peak meters are good for other purposes, but not for making sure your songs are the same loudness. Here's a link from WWW.PROREC.COM of an article, which goes into an explanation of what mastering is. Or just go there and type "mastering" into their search field and find it that way.

http://www.prorec.com/prorec/articles.nsf/files/F717F79532C9067386256688001A7623

After you've learned some mastering technique's you'll realize the need for a VU meter and do what I do and use an external one, to match levels.

Actually, I don't teach anymore except on a part time basis, when someone gets sick or needs a vacation. I taught at "The Recording Institute of Detroit". It's run by the Motown mastering engineer that I've mentioned I was trained by. You can check out their website at WWW.RECORDINGEQ.COM, which has their price listings and also offers an online training course, along with a free monthly publication with a lot of recording tips. If you're interested tell them I referred you, they might give you an additional discount.

Regards,
Brian Franz