> "ALWAYS capture to Tape also!"

Yes - I didn't mention this, but it'd definitely be a belt and braces approach ...

Incidentally - if a Firestore or other device records for three hours and a tape has to be changed every hour - is it possible to keep recording with the Firestore whilst changing tapes?

You can set up the firestore to be independent of recording from tape so you can record while changing tapes, but it's a jam start, not a record button/synced start. While we still always shoot to tape, we end up using the HDD in all situations. No dropouts ever, with HDD.

It's a tough call, what you're proposing. As much as I'd like to say you could be nearly as fast, you can't. A switcher can beat an NLE any day of the week, but as you've noted, the downside is that you're stuck with what the director called for the switcher. With NLE, you have options at all times. We've done a couple events as you're describing, based around regional moto X, and I know the client was much happier with what we did vs what he's gotten from a small production truck. Our cost was somewhat less, but the quality was definitely a lot higher, only because there were always choices.
On a fast computer, you can run Vegas at double or 2.5 times normal speed and still get reasonably accurate multicam points, which is probably my standard "always" format for this sort of work. If I'm off by a tad, I can see that immediately during normal speed playback once the master track is assembled.

Thanks Spot - yes, a live switch would definitely be quicker, but this doesn't have to be that quick - I figured it may take up to a day to do the multi cam edit in Vegas, which would be in plenty of time. (Final Broadcast time around 50 mins, of which the shoot would occupy maybe 35-40 min)

Costing vary wildly, and there are so many staff/equipment variables, but an O/B van could easily be A$5,000 for a day, on top of camera ops, who would be involved either way.

Even if they do decide to go the live switch way, there would still be the possibility of improving the Director's cut from camera tapes, but that would still involve more fiddly post production time.

Even if I charged $1,000 for each edit (which I won't), possible rough comparison of costs apart from camera ops could be:

Outside Broadcast Van Method
13 x $5,000 + final edit (?$300) = $68,900

Vegas Edit Method
Purchase 5 x Firestores/Spare Batteries etc $10,000
13 x 1 day edits $13,000
Total $23,000 including asset of 5 Firestores.

Anyway, next pre-production meet isn't for a couple of weeks, so I'm collecting ammo!

Peter

I think you're grossly undervaluing yourself, but that's based on our rates. No way would we touch a project like this for triple the rates you've posted above. If you can make your nut on that sort of rate, that's exceptionally inexpensive.
Only 5kAU per day for a truck?? That's only around 3800.00 USD, and that is ridiculously cheap for any kind of a truck in the US, anyway. I dunno what trucks in Oz cost, as I've never hired one, but at 5K a day, I hope your production teams never want to move to the USA. :-)

PeterWright, I would definely reconsider your rates, using DSE advice. One important point in planning, backup equipment! Your should consider having one or two extra Firestores encase of in field failures,( must keep production going).

If nothing else I'd be seriously questioning just what sort of 'truck' they're getting at those prices. When someone says 'OB' van to me that usually means broadcast cameras with triax or fibre back to the truck and $5K per day wouldn't cover petrol and coffee. Plus you need a lot of bods just to man the van.

Of course the word 'broadcast' gets used pretty loosly so it could be a bunch of old cameras and a composite vision mixer with a S-VHS deck.

So I'd also be perhaps pitching your spiel at better quality as well.

Bob.

Blunt as ever Bob - Love it!

"Of course the word 'broadcast' gets used pretty loosly so it could be a bunch of old cameras and a composite vision mixer with a S-VHS deck."

What about using Newtek's Toaster for this kind of purpose. You'd get the advantages of a switcher and a NLE in one suite.

Marco

I agree with Spot. If your bid comes in too far below the competition, then it will likely be tossed out without discussion.

If they are ready to spend $50K for the "live truck", then they may jump at the chance to get better editing within their time constraints for a mere $35K.

We have a couple of "truck" event shooters here (usually retired broadcast shooters who bought used VHS gear ten years ago) and they try to tell the client that it takes weeks to edit a three or four camera project on the PC. Well, maybe it takes *them* weeks to edit with their Version 1.0 of Adobe Premiere, but you can probably bang out the edit in a day or two - max.

Heck, at $35K per shoot, you can afford to fly me to Oz to assist.... (Hint, hint, nod, nod)

Steve M.

Good suggestion but I think there's a number of other factors to consider.
In general the big boys with their expensive 'vans' find it way cheaper and easier to do a live mix.
Firstly for 8 hours of coverage you've got kit and crew tied up for say 1 day, maybe another day or two max to polish it up, typically one or two cameras will also be recorded to give some room for fudging in post. Thing is though at the end of the day it's pretty well in the bag.

Now recording all cameras and coming away with a bunch of tapes.
Well firstly one assumes the director is going to want to see what those cameras are shooting and be able to bark directions to the cameramen. So we're still talking a bunch of cabling, comms and monitors during the shoot.

Now in post, even recording to HDD that's a heck of a lot of data and presumable it's got to offloaded from the cameras HDD before the next day and even with 1394 running flat out that amount of footage will take time. Having got all that data ingested it's got to be edited and presumably the director is going to want to direct. Will he be happy with what Ultimate S etc can offer? I'd be more than happy but I doubt the average directorial type would be. He'll want full frame rate from all cameras, each on a separate monitor and one for the output of the switcher. Plus he'll want instant playback of the cuts.
So you could be looking at a serious Avid setup with multiroll and they cost by the hour.
Furthermore I'd factor in a bunch of cash for the aggro factor, spending a few weeks with a director and possibly other hangers on doesn't sound that attractive to me. You need space, furniture and facilities.

Of course if this is a charity / community service gig things might be a little different...or not.

Bob.