O.T. - microphone for stage plays and musicals?

dalemccl wrote on 6/14/2012, 8:10 PM

I occasionally shoot video of stage plays and music concerts at my grand children's schools (family use only; I don't get paid or try to sell the video). I bought a Rode Video Mic Pro a year or two ago to record the audio separately, but only used it once. It is plastic and seems quite delicate and I felt I had to be very careful when setting it up on-site. And the rubber bands in the shock mount come off too easily. I would like to get a different mic that is more substantial in build - maybe with a metal housing. Ideally one that could have a good chance of withstanding being knocked to the ground if a child runs into my tripod, and result in nothing more than a small dent. I'd prefer not to spend over $150. As far as the recording environment that is relevant to the type of mic I would need, it is:

Crowded elementary and middle school gymnasiums where tripod setup locations are very limited. I am typically either on the side of the gym about 30 feet from the stage and at a 45 degree angle to it, or 75 feet from the stage at the back center of the gym with no angle (i.e. directly behind the audience).

I plan to connect the mic to a Zoom H1 portable recorder that has an 1/8" input jack, so a pro-type mic with an XLR connection won't work and I'd prefer not to bother with a converter.

Some of you may have had a similar need and have found a good mic for this purpose, although I suspect that $150 may not be enough budget for the requirements I outlined. I'd welcome any suggestions. Thanks.

Comments

Steve Mann wrote on 6/14/2012, 8:17 PM

The best microphone is the one closest to the sound source. No on-camera microphone will give you better results.

I usually put four MXL 990 Condenser Microphones ($60 at Amazon) on stands on the floor near but not touching the stage. Since I shoot with two cameras, this gives me four tracks of audio.

The MXL 990's aren't the best by far, but they are surprisingly sensitive and work well for plays and musical events.

dalemccl wrote on 6/14/2012, 8:40 PM

Thanks, Steve. I don't have the luxury of placing mics near the stage. Sometimes there are kids sitting on the floor just below the stage. Sometimes some of the kids are on risers in a "V" shape in front of, and running at an angle to, the stage (i.e. some of the performers are on the stage and some are on the risers.) Also I am not sure the school personnel would allow me to set up mics other than on my rig. They have an official video guy who shoots the performance and sells DVD's to the parents. I feel that whatever I use has to be on or near my tripod, even though that won't capture sound as well as the setup you use.

Thanks for the idea though.

farss wrote on 6/14/2012, 8:55 PM

"The best microphone is the one closest to the sound source"

Much truth there however it's quite amazing how well the phased array style of microphones can sort out the wanted sounds from the mud. Unfortunately they are uber expensive.

The other type of microphone that does a remarkable job even with stage shows and can be had quite cheaply is the PZM. I've managed to pickup a couple of Chinese made ones from eBay at under $50 each and they work quite well. Unfortunately though whilst within the OP's budget they do require phantom power.

To be honest with such a limited budget the original statement probably holds the key to the best answer, just use the X-Y mic on the H1 but get it closer to the stage and/or stick to the Rode. Yes the rubber bands that makeup the shock mount are a bit of a worry but replacements are readily available or if not a visit to any bearing supplier for some "O" Rings should get the problem solved for a few dollars.

Also perhaps consider just using pieces of acoustic foam to absorb sound coming at the mic that's not going to be "wanted". Again this is a cheap solution, it is fragile, it mightn't look all the "pro" but when you're on a tight budget you have to accept some compromises.
Unfortunately from my experience with things audio when it comes to spending a bit more to get a noticeably better outcome a "bit" oftenly means ten times more, especially at the bottom end of the market.

Bob.

Julius_ wrote on 6/14/2012, 9:23 PM

wow,,very restricted.

Can you suspend the mics from the ceiling?

Can you use one of these?
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/821259-REG/Tascam_DR_40_DR_40_4_Track_Handheld_Digital.html

If it's a music play, I'm sure the sound will be loud enough. I once used my camera audio from my sony z5u shotgun mic from the 2nd floor balcony, I was surprised on how well I caught the sound....and it was music only (no speeches), and the music was loud.

Or if you can, put a speaker up there with an amp(and mic on the speaker transmitting to your wireless on the camera)..it';s a little bulkier but the kids won't kick it around, and just put it on the corner stage...Sorry don't have any other advice.
Hope it helps!

dalemccl wrote on 6/14/2012, 9:44 PM

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/821259-REG/Tascam_DR_40_DR_40_4_Track_Handheld_Digital.html

Julius, thanks for the suggestion. The Tascam is similar to my Zoom H1, although I suspect the Tascam is better quality (it cost about 2x as much). I can't ceiling mount it. I try to keep a low profile. Other than the official video shooter, I am usually the only one with a tripod and decent camcorder. All the other parents and grandparents use handheld cell phones or P&S digicams. I already kind of stand out like a sore thumb.

The main thing I am not sure about on mics for this situation is the type of mic and the characteristics to look for. I am quite far from the stage and sometimes the kids don't speak their lines very loud, and other times when the whole group sings, it is plenty loud. Not sure which type of mic can "reach out" and capture distant sound, if any. A "shotgun" mic maybe? I don't want one that is so long that it sticks out past the front of the camcorder (if I shoe mount it).

If $150 won't get a suitable mic, I might go with Bob's suggestion and just use the H1 and its built-in mics, although I would probably just mount it on my tripod for the reasons cited in my reply to Steve Mann regarding my limited logistics. The H1 is plastic too, but seems much less fragile than the Rode mic.

farss wrote on 6/15/2012, 1:52 AM

"Not sure which type of mic can "reach out" and capture distant sound, if any. A "shotgun" mic maybe? I don't want one that is so long that it sticks out past the front of the camcorder (if I shoe mount it). "

Technically no microphone reaches out, you cannot really magnify sound like you can light with a telescope, well OK a parabolic mic can but they have a woefull frequency response
All any mic can do is reject sound coming from certain directions and that's what a "shotgun" mic does. It is really a hyper-cardiod. Unfortunately they are not very good at rejecting low frequency sound, good manufacturers will give you a polar response chart at mid and low frequencies. As I mentioned before the only exception here is the phased array microphones that are actually a number of microphones (upto 10) that are used to cancel sound coming from outside the desired pickup angle.

The problem with stage productions is if you get any directional mic close to the stage it will not pickup the sides of the stage. Get it too far back and it starts to pickup ambient and audience. This also depends on the acoustics of the space of course. So you would oftenly use a number of normal cardiod mics, say 3 to 4 spaced across the front of the stage into a multichannel recorder and with decent mics and decent preamps if there's people whispering.

I have managed to get a great recording of a stage show from the back of the hall. No amplification was in use. The venue was acoustically treated, some of the talent spoke very quietly and at other times very loud drums were played. The mic I was lucky enough to use costs around $3,000 and no, I don't own it :( I was the official "video guy" so no problem getting stuff were it had to be so long as I didn't try to rejig the performance for my benefit. In case you're wondering, no else was permitted to take video of the performance, you want a video you buy the official video that the production paid for.

Which leads me to my next point. Why don't you try to work with the guy who is already their with a camera? Surely he'd appreciate another camera to get better coverage, seems like a win - win for everyone.

Bob.

VidMus wrote on 6/15/2012, 2:38 AM

@ dalemccl , "They have an official video guy who shoots the performance and sells DVD's to the parents."

And you are undermining the profits of the official video guy who shoots the performance and sells DVD's!

How would you feel if someone did that to you?

Sorry, but what you are doing is very, very wrong!!!

craftech wrote on 6/15/2012, 5:50 AM

How about a Nady cbm-40x boundary microphone and a Rolls PB-23 Phantom Power Supply. The converter (which you said you would rather not bother with) is only around $8.00.

That setup will run you a little over $100 and will be bullet proof.

John

farss wrote on 6/15/2012, 6:10 AM

Looking around Musicians Friend I found the Crown Sound Grabber II PZM for $80 and it doesn't need phantom power or an adaptor.
I have zero experience with either however Crown are reknown for thei PZM mics.

Bob.

Steve Mann wrote on 6/15/2012, 10:18 AM

""They have an official video guy who shoots the performance and sells DVD's to the parents.""

Just buy his DVD. It will be far better in the long run and way under your $150 budget. Besides, this way you get to sit in the audience and enjoy the show the way you're supposed to.

dalemccl wrote on 6/15/2012, 11:09 AM

Thanks everyone. I will check out the Nady/Rolls combo and the Crown PZM.

VidMus, I respect your opinion, but disagree. No one is loosing profit in this situation. My video is for my own use only. I edit it to an HD file (in VP of course) and give a copy of the file to my son, but he buys the official DVD too. They are usually too busy to watch my file or the DVD. But I figure when he and his wife are older and the kids have grown up and moved out, they might pull out the old videos and DVDs and reminisce.

I would not buy the DVD for myself even if I didn't take my own video. Many of the parents/grandparents shoot video on their cell phones and P&S digicams. Plus there are usually a few parents with camcorders, although they usually hand-hold them. I don't feel I am infringing on the pro's revenue any more than they are just because I use a tripod and a consumer grade HD camcorder.

I'm not sure how "pro" these guys are, other than the fact they are selling DVD's. They seem to use different guys at each occasion. I don't think I have seen the same one twice. I've looked at their equipment and most were using consumer grade SD camcorders, sometimes without an external mic. And they are always single camera shoots from a tripod set up on the gym floor behind the audience. So anytime someone gets out of their seat and walks to the restroom or wherever, they walk in front of the camera.

I shoot and edit my videos because I enjoy doing it, not to compete with someone trying to earn a living. As I said, I respect your opinion. Based on your forum nickname, I suspect you earn a living doing video, so I can understand why you would be sensitive to this.

richard-amirault wrote on 6/15/2012, 1:37 PM

I found the Crown Sound Grabber II PZM for $80 and it doesn't need phantom power or an adaptor.

Well ... sort of ... it does use a single AA (or was it AAA?) battery for it's power source.

I like this mic and have two of them (into a single digital recorder for stereo) to get better sound when shooting panel discussions at Science Fiction conventions. See:

However I'm not sure if they would work well for you in your particular situation. However you'll see (hear) in this video how much better the sound can be when you can get your mics closer to your subjects as opposed to the on-camera mic (or an external mic located on/near your camera)

Former user wrote on 6/15/2012, 2:02 PM

VidMus,

That;s like saying no one else should take any pictures at a wedding. Or you shouldn't shoot video of your kid playing football because the school has an official photographer or videographer.
The people in the audience did not hire the videographer so they have as much right to shoot as he does.

In fact, the videographer is probably breaking copyright laws by recording the music or stage play without recording or distribution rights.

Now, if he was buying the DVD and copying it free for the other parents, that would be wrong.

Dave T2

Chienworks wrote on 6/15/2012, 2:51 PM

When i'm recording a live stage show i try to use 4 or 5 mics evenly spaced in front of the stage, depending on how wide it is. I don't do a multitrack recording, but will mix down to stereo there on the spot (simply because i don't have multitrack recording capability).

If you get too many mics then you end up with a lot more noise and phasing. If you use too few then you end up with dead spots. Probably the most annoying case was when i was stuck with only two mics, one on each end of the stage. The stereo separation was almost total and it seemed like everything got picked up in only one mic or the other. An actor standing in the middle could turn his head slightly and his voice would jump from entirely left channel to entirely right. I finally ended up making a mix that was 60% left and 40% right for the left channel and 40% left and 60% right for the right channel.

All things considered, proper mic placement probably counts for a lot more than what type the mics are.

MSmart wrote on 6/15/2012, 3:53 PM

@brighterside, thanks for that great demo.

Coughs!!..... ARGH!!!!!!

They're just one of the reasons I always shoot two performances so I can use the audio from the other performance to dub them out.

That and those stoopid waterbottles. crackle, crackle, crackle, about to drive you nuts!

dalemccl wrote on 6/15/2012, 3:53 PM

"Just buy his DVD. It will be far better in the long run and way under your $150 budget. Besides, this way you get to sit in the audience and enjoy the show the way you're supposed to."

Steve, I hear what you're saying about enjoying the show. I definitely don't enjoy the show as much because I am focused on operating the camcorder instead of watching the show. But I really enjoy the process of capturing and editing video and I can watch my video when it is finished and enjoy that. Besides, the DVD is standard def and I really prefer the HD video that I shoot. The intent is to preserve the memories of my grand kids while they are young and I want it to be as high a video quality as possible.

dalemccl wrote on 6/15/2012, 4:30 PM

Thanks for all the suggestions.

I'm going to look into the PZM/boundary mic ideas mentioned by craftech, farss, and brighterside, and consider increasing my budget accordingly for the mics and more hand-held recorders.

riredale wrote on 6/15/2012, 7:48 PM

I shoot about one stage play per month. I use my FX-1 on the centerline, near the back of the hall. I run a second camera (an HC3 HDV camcorder) off to one side from the front row. I am usually able to enlist the help of someone to run that camera, zooming and panning from time to time in order to give me shots to cut to. This breaks the monotony of a single-camera project.

I use an Audio-Technica AT822 on a stand relatively close to the stage but not on the centerline, so that solo performances on the centerline don't have a microphone boom in the way. The AT822 is built like a tank (metal construction) and could probably be used as a hammer in a pinch. Sound quality is excellent, though somewhat noisier than the $1k+ mics used by some pros. I had the chance to directly compare the output of my AT822 with a pro mic setup several years ago, and the only obvious difference was the noise floor. BUT with a live production a low noise floor is wasted anyway, so the AT822 performs beautifully.

It is powered by a single AA cell that runs it for hundreds of hours and one of the cables it comes with terminates in a stereo miniplug. I run that through a SHIELDED male to female 20' extension cable (or multiples thereof) to a Tascam DR-07 recorder. Sound quality is excellent. The miniplugs and thin wiring are much more delicate than the usual microphone cables, so take precautions with taping. To date I have yet to pick up any noise even though this is an unbalanced setup. But it's important to use shielded cable.

I also record the output of the sound board on a separate recorder. This provides very clean audio of the actors (these days most productions use wireless mics on the key players) as well as sound effects and music.

With two video sources plus audio from the sound board, a stereo mic close-in, and stereo audio from the two cameras (for syncing as well as emergency audio) I am able to throw together something that has decent production values. Of course it's a lot more work to edit than just shooting with one camera and using the camera audio but the difference is astonishing. The actor's words can be clearly understood rather than just the "mush" that one normally gets from back in the hall.

About four years ago I was able to record a musical with two cameras, stereo upstage (for the chorus), stereo for the orchestra pit, actor wireless microphones, and surround audio (from the FX1 in the back of the hall). I was able to create a pretty cool surround-sound DVD of the production. It's nice to be able to dial in the separate audio components to get a balanced mix.

musicvid10 wrote on 6/15/2012, 7:56 PM

dalemccl,
please email my username at gmail.

Chienworks wrote on 6/15/2012, 10:00 PM

"with a live production a low noise floor is wasted anyway"

Very true. I've seen a lot of cases where the S/N (actor/audience) ratio is as low as 10dB for sustained periods. What's more of a challenge though is the dynamics of a live stage production. I've measured over 90dB difference from the quiet lines to the full chorus & orchestra production numbers. I usually have a pretty stiff outboard compressor between the mixer and the recorder and even still have to ride gain pretty closely.

Taking notes at a rehearsal is vital. You don't want to change the volume much during a scene or number, so it's good to know in advance what the peaks for each section will be and adjust the volume in between them.

riredale wrote on 6/16/2012, 7:13 PM

The noise floor of the AT822 is below the typical ventilation noise at a hall where a play takes place. But in a carefully-isolated studio you can definitely boost the gain on playback enough to hear the hiss. But that's in a studio setting where you can hear your own heartbeat.

The pro microphones that were also recording an event at such a quiet setting had hiss maybe 20db below the AT822. To my ears they sounded pretty much identical to the AT822 in all other respects--just no hiss.

We had both systems set up because the pro sound guy was having issues with his rack-mounted equipment, so we ran my little AT822/Tascam DR07 system as a backup! Technology has come a long way.

mudsmith wrote on 6/17/2012, 9:34 AM

Having recorded a couple of operas in my day, I can tell you that there are many ways to do this......However, all of the standard rules apply and the best ways do tend to involve more expensive mics and more time placing them.

There are some partially directional PZM style mics (standard PZM boundary type mics pickup in an non-directional hemisphere) made by both Crown and Shure that are pretty good at picking up action on a stage, yet are relatively invisible when placed on the stage apron with their directionality aimed back at the performers. 2 or 3 of these can pick up all the action when properly mixed......and will eliminate some audience issues (but will also reduce clapping if clapping capture is desired).

That being said, I gave my more picture-oriented videographer friend a Zoom H2, and he reported fabulous results recording his daughter's school stage performance. The H2 has some variability in how you set up its mics' pickup patterns, and I really don't know how he implemented this, but the results were nonetheless very satisfactory to him, easy to sync up with his camera mic, and cost a good bit less than 3 directional PZM boundary mics.