OT: 3D Compositing of ringed planet eg Boris ?

fausseplanete wrote on 6/27/2009, 4:16 AM
What's the best tool to make a "Saturn Ring" of media (e.g. photos) around a globe? What do I mean by "best"? Proper 3D modelling and ideally some "atmosphere" effect. Got so far with Boris but not sure if it's the right tool for the job...

As part of an intro sequence, I want to make a circle of photographs rotate in 3D around a globe. Kind of like a classic "Saturn", tilted towards the viewer. I have made a version of this in Boris FX 9.2, based on the Boris tutorial at http://www.borisfx.com/tutorials/around.php. I assume that because the tutorial is at their own website, it represents the typical or best way to achieve that kind of thing in Boris.

Although the tutorial worked, the process was clunky as follows:
a) It's implemented as a 2D "illusion" of 3D, with the front (and lower) part of the ring in front of the globe in front of the back (and upper) part of the ring. The planet is tilted with its top towards the viewer, hence upper/lower parts of ring.
b) It appears not to be the case that you define a surface (e.g. sphere) of fixed size then a bitmap gets fitted to it. Instead, if you swap one bitmap for another of different size then it folds that the sphere ends up being a different size also. Also for large bitmaps the scale has to be ridiculously small to get a sphere that is within-frame. I just blindly followed the tutorial and that's what it gives.

Can anyone recommend a better way of doing it in Boris (as a proper ring of fixed size in 3D space virtually surrounding a 3D sphere of fixed size within that same space)?

Or indeed is there a better tool for the kind of thing I am trying to achieve?

Ideally I'd like to go further, to put some thickness on the ring (so the photos look like glass tiles) and some atmosphere (3D particles/mist or glow effect?) around the globe. Would that be appropriate for Boris or should I be using some other app? I have tinkered in the past with with Combustion, Blender, Maya, Sketchup and Daz for example, but only a little, and time is short, so any pointers in the most promising direction would be most helpful.

Comments

TheHappyFriar wrote on 6/27/2009, 5:15 AM
it can be done in vegas but it's not as easy as other apps (check out all of these done my XFX: here).

I've started using Blender for stuff like this. In some ways it's not as easy as Vegas (IE you need to assign a material to each object, and each material needs a picture vs Vegas's just adding new tracks) but I'm getting to do a lot with blender now.
Tech Diver wrote on 6/27/2009, 6:03 AM
I have done lots of planetary simulation in Boris RED in full 3D with cast shadows, etc. I have not seen the Boris tutorial but I would defintely not do it in 2D. For the rings of Saturn, I extruded an image of the rings to create a thin 3D object with partial opacity. The image of the rings is mapped to the front and rear surfaces.

After you create you planets and other 3D objects, you can use nested 3D containers so each object can move and be a collection of the whole. That is, planets and moons rotate, ships orbit moons, moons with ships orbit main planet, etc. You can also map the stars onto a huge sphere and put your entire space scene inside it. As your camera changes it point of view, the entire scene moves correctly.

For cylindrical planetary and star maps from NASA that can be wrapped onto a sphere, take a look at:

http://laps.fsl.noaa.gov/albers/sos/sos.html (appears to be offline today)
http://planetscapes.com/maps/cylmaps.html
http://solarviews.com/cap/index/maps-cylindrical1.html

Most (if not all) of these are public domain.
You can also do a search for "Science on a sphere".

Peter
fausseplanete wrote on 6/27/2009, 6:57 AM
Peter:

The tutorial did include use of a 3D container but I'm not sure if I have the correct understanding of what it's meant to do. Initially inside the container I had a sphere and a very short cylinder (that I hoped to position in 3D like a waist-belt round the sphere). Although it was called a "3D container", the position controls for the individual objects (cylinder and sphere) inside it only had adjustment sliders for X & Y, not for Z. I wonder if that is a difference between Boris RED and Boris FX or whether I have the wrong expectation about what a 3D container should do. To get what I want, do I need to put each object in its own 3D container then nest those inside another one, i.e. is it the container (rather than the objects that gets a Z-control? I can't try it out right now as that computer is being backed-up.
fausseplanete wrote on 6/27/2009, 7:07 AM
Happy:

XFX sure makes impressive use of Vegas's 3D. But I don't think Vegas can model actual 3D objects, just position 2D objects in 3D space. So I can't wrap a bitmap round a sphere for example, because there isn'y a sphere in Vegas.

Having said that, I guess one coud "cheat" e.g. by modelling just the globe in Boris, static or rotating, then rendering that (as 2D) for use as a track in Vegas., then the photos could each be on individual tracks being rotated around what is really a disk but still looks like a sphere (provided perspective not changed). Fiddly/risky to make it look right though (to get the perspectives to match sufficiently).
TheHappyFriar wrote on 6/27/2009, 7:34 AM
no, vegas can't use real 3d objects, but in space all 3d objects look 2d.
Tech Diver wrote on 6/27/2009, 11:58 AM
Happy,
Yes, but if you want to have the moons and rings of Saturn cast shadows upon the planet, you need true 3D. The mere lighting of a planet from the side and the change that you would see if you orbited the planet also requires 3D.

Fausse,
If you send me an email, I will gladly send you one of my RED project files as well as a short clip of a multi-planet space compostion. It is a little difficult to explain the project with out the RED file.

Peter
TheHappyFriar wrote on 6/27/2009, 2:22 PM
again, you don't NEED real 3d to do shadows as everything's 2d objects, but it eliminates some thinking.
farss wrote on 6/27/2009, 4:14 PM
A sphere is not a 2D object. A rectangular surface wrapped around a cylinder is not a 2D object either. Cast the shadow from one onto the other and there's a considerable amount of calculation involved.
When something as simple as a straight edge casts a shadow onto a sphere the shape of the shadow is distored by the curve of the sphere, you don't get a straight shadow. The distortion changes as the edge moves between the light source and the sphere.
You'd also need to consider diffraction, light interacts with edges in more complex ways than simple occlusion, how shadows appear in the real world is fairly complex to model even in a full blown 3D application.

Bob.
TheHappyFriar wrote on 6/27/2009, 5:51 PM
i agree if you want to get detailed a 3d app is the way to go, but I was under the assumption we were just talking about having simple text (or something) go around another object.

something similar to this:
Rory Cooper wrote on 6/28/2009, 11:05 PM
Hi FaussenplanetE

From what I visualise what you want in Boris, try the cylinder wrap

You will have to place the pics together in a strip save as a Bmp OR png with alpha if the pics arn't touching. then in Boris change your track shape to cylinder and under cylinder toggle set your wrap
And under transformations,position spin Y.

Checkout perspective toggle as well under cylinder

So to get the pics to fly in
Set that up as normal with a fly in then add a cylinder track and drop the flyin track inside the cylinder track

Rory

Ps Bluff titler does something similar use the cylinder morph fx
Rory Cooper wrote on 6/28/2009, 11:21 PM
The reason why the 3d thing isn’t working is because you need to create a 3d bin or container and then drag your elements into that container
Also check that you are on extrusion for the pics and as you are in cylinder centre you axis points for all ie bin and cylinder

This can be done in Vegas very quickly

How many pics do you need around the globe?
How do you want the pics to fly in/
I will dump a mask in for the globe and the pics around the globe in true 3d space

i need this info then i will send the veg to you

rory
fausseplanete wrote on 6/28/2009, 11:41 PM
I'm trying both Vegas and Boris methods. Many thanks to HappyFriar for showing the Vegas way, it's good to have more than one method and at least I know that one definitely works in time for my deadline.

xfx:
Thanks for the alpha tip. Otherwise, in Boris, I did what you said, which is what the tutorial said also. The trouble was with placing the cylinder in 3D to be around the globe, which is difficult when there's no Z-axis!

To elaborate / explain:

As per the tutorial, I put cylinder and globe in both a 3D Container. The tutorial didn't use proper 3D positioning and instead gave the illusion of it by putting a masked lower part of cylinder in compositing-front of globe in compositing-front of same cylinder. I say "compositing-" because this involves no Z-axis.

Looking for a "proper" 3D way of doing it, I found an explanation of 3D Container in Chris Vadnais's book "Instant Boris Effects" (page 83). It showed a "Renderer" option in 3D Container's controls, which looked like it had to be set to "3D Model" mode before a Z axis control (like I want) would appear. But in my Boris 'FX' (as opposed to 'RED' or 'BLUE' etc) there is no "Renderer" option. So now I wonder if that's just left out of Boris 'FX' (I was never too sure how their various products differed, I just assumed the more expensive ones had more filters etc.). Yesterday I posted a question to this effect on the Cow-Boris forum but no reply to it so far.
Rory Cooper wrote on 6/29/2009, 12:08 AM
Yes Red has composite in 3d and FX doesn’t

I will look up instant Boris effects sounds interesting

My offer still stands if you need it

Rory

fausseplanete wrote on 6/29/2009, 12:12 AM
Thanks Rory, I see we just "crossed in the post" by the way. HappyFriar also sent me a Veg file with text as planet ring, rotating courtesay of ProType. but I wouldn't say no to another one, especially if it is even closer to what I need (images). I have 8 images to form the belt. I don't want them to fly in, I will just fade-up the planet with belt already in place. Cheers,

David
Rory Cooper wrote on 6/29/2009, 1:28 AM
David

send me your email adress