There is no simple answer to your question. As the author approached you I would think that they may already have something in mind, or perhaps money to make the film. While there really are not set rules for the "right" way I would suggest a few things - first and formost get a contract that spells out in detail what you are doing in relation to the film. For example is the author simply "hireing" you to get the film version going or are *you* now the rights owner and are going to make the film?

Producing is a different story. From what it sounds like this author came up to you and said "Wanna make a movie of my book?" and has left "everything" in your lap. I could be wrong because you did not go into any great detail about the meeting. Securing financing can be, and usually is, the hardest part. This can be done in many, many ways. One way to for the author to actually sell the movie rights to someone with the stipulation that you be hired to produce the film. Another way could be for you and the author to create a short version and find someone to represent it at film makarts. Another way is to get a script and get it to high profile actors to see if they will sign a letter of intent and than try to get backing for the film.

Some other ways - banks have been known to give out loans. Local and state arts councils very often give out grants. Start the film on your own and take the unfishined project to a film completion house. Go to various agencys that deal with the type of abuse the book deals with and see if they could fund the film. Read more about the life of Ed Wood and see the Tim Burton movie about him. Read up on how the first Evil Dead was funded.

All that said - step one is to get a budget on paper to show these people. You can't go into a meeting and be asked "how much do you need?" and answer "Well, I don't really know". So sit down and work out the cost ahead of time. You have to decide what kind of film this will be - will it be something you are doing as an indy? Or do you want to write the script and shop it around to agents in order to get studios to look at it? Do you want to direct the film as well? How much does the author and or publisher want for the movie rights? Shooting on film or video? Docu-drama or full out feature film? And so on.

Really at this stage I feel you should be more concerned with getting a good script. But I did read your post and you mentioned you would hire a "lawyer somewhere along the line to sort out rights" and, honestly, before you can do *anything* you need to get that part taken care of. Like I said above - get it in writting what the author is expecting you to do. If you want to get this film made it would be up to you to secure the movie rights. But as it sort of seems like the author came to you than it should be their responeablity to secure those rights, not yours. You will need to make sure they have the rights however.

Once that part is done you can start figuring out many of the other elements. Shooting format can be figured out but you need to think ahead and set realistic goals. It is very very hard for a fully indy film to ever see light of day in a theatre. Film festivals aside the day of the mini-theatre and art houses have pretty much vanished. So unless you have a major or minor-major interested in your film you may not want to actually shoot on film. Shooting video can be a great option with limited budgets - shooting mini-dv anymore can be a great option. It is very possible to be able to shoot a small indy feature on video for $5,000.00 or less. We live in a DIY age so if you found local talent who will act for meals and a copy and if you can find a crews to so the same you have saved lots of money. With tools like Vegas one person could do all the post. If the film is mostly talking heads and you can keep the location to one or two places you could probably get away with a crew of 5 people, or less if need be. Why I am saying this to you is because as a producer at some point you will have to look at the budget and start cutting corners. Don't get depressed and think you can not make the film if you can only come up with 1/4 of the money that you had hoped for.

DO try to get good actors - just because someone is starting off does not mean they are bad.
DO hire, and pay if need be for a good one, a location sound recordist/boom person. This can help to save you lots of headaches in post - especially if you did not get the talent to sign off on ADR days or simple do not have any budget for ADR.
DO hire, and pay if need be for a good one, a DP who knows how to shoot and light for the format you are shooting. While it may be tempting to get someone who owns their own DVX100a or ARRI to save money it does not always mean they can actually light a scene. And keep in mind I am talking having the camera operator also be the DP. You could be fine with simple high key lighting but for the subject matter I feel low key would be better - and this leads to someone who would understand how to do light design for the given format you are shooting.
DO get things signed off on before you do them. Don't just say "yeah sure" when the director comes to you and says "I want to do this shot at night...under water. It will look great and add produciton value!!" until you understand the added costs involved.
DO NOT overwork and underfeed your underpaid crew. (And remember chances are no matter how much you pay them they will always consider it "not enough to put up with this sh**!") Food can make a crew very happy. Going long hours and just buying that third meal is a lot easier and cheaper in the long run than the grief of not doing so.
DO NOT be afraid to actually fire someone. Being a producer means you have that power. The long standing insiders joke is that everyone but the Producer can be fired. you may not want that power but when it comes to productivty on the set and getting those shots - you will need to make some hard choices.

Anyhow - before I keep on blabbing those are some basics. Ask more of you have more specific questions.

I hate to be an old poop, but let me say this, frankly. If you have to ask such a basic question as this, then, with all due respect, you are not in any position to produce a motion picture. It's far more involved than anything anyone here can explain, considering the constraints of time and space and bandwidth.

Jay

ditto

To be honest no one is born with the knowledge to do anything film or video related. To be frank to the people being frank, with no offense intended here, if you can't offer basic advice than you are either very bitter about "these young wippersnappers" doing more things in a shorter amount of time, or you have not yet reached that karmic spot of feeling a want to give back...or maybe you are French. (And if you don't get that - well, you have no business saying you are a film fan or a comedy fan. LOL) Unless something has changed in the last nanosecond and the earth has wildly spun off its axis spinning us all into bizarro land than one the oldest and best ways to start to learn is to ask "how do I do this?"

Filmy's right, give the kid a chance!

1) Script - is this something that will make money? If not, that determines whether you're going after an investor or a giftor. An investor plans on a return, a gift is just that... Very few "seasoned" money people will gift. Sad to say, but it's a business nonetheless.

2) Get an Attorney. Get it in writing. Never, never assume you can get this taken care of "down the line" - I'll let you look at my butt for that very reason... I've been screwed a couple too many times. Always make it legal. Protects them, protects you.

3) Budget - with lots of Indy films, the budget dictates where the film is going, what it will be shot on, and how it will be distributed. Larger features and larger budgets are generally sought after a detailed breakdown of the script, locations, crew, equipment and other costs. It helps here to have a good idea of what Union or non-Union wages are for your area in this field.

4) Investors - Do not expect to get a second chance to make a first impression. These guys/gals are putting their money on the line and faith in you that they'll get it back. If you don't go into this full force with as much knowledge as you can, you may hurt your chances at money in the future. I know guys who would mortage their homes before asking for money to produce a film. All because they don't want to burn an eventual bridge.

Filmy covered talent and crew. You don't always have to pay a lot, but unless you've got a crew who have no jobs and are living off a trust fund, you owe it to them to pay them. Lots of people throw in the "but its for a friend" or "its a labor of love" guilt trips. They may work.. most of the time you'll just end up with less friends. This is a business where you want as many friends as possible.

Lots of research and time on your behalf will net a project that hopefully is worth the time of all those involved.

mike

Hey Filmv,
Very supportive and all, but guys like Jay Gladwell, (who I had the pleasure of meeting once) are pro's through and through. We've SEEN the results of well-meaning "producers" on their first ventures; who crap away money from well meaning investors.

That $150 to $250,000 is probably on target. That's an awful lot of money to give to a first timer, who's asking for advice on a web forum and, yeah, old (and young) farts like Jay, me and a host of others, who I'm sure will be joining This Discussion, get offended.

So my suggestion is to Hire Jay Gladwell, to advise you. He's smart, experienced and NOT a rip-off. If not him, any of a dozen other PROVEN pro's who have Experience and Credits.

You can be the Executive Producer. That means you put the people who KNOW what they're doing together, get a good credit, learn tons of stuff, and if you happen to get a "hit" - make some money.

While I realize the stakes are nowhere near the same, you'd never give that advice to someone who wanted to do a simple appendectomy - producing Real Films for the purpose of making money takes time and knowledge. It's not fair to the dozens of people involved nor to the potential investors, nor to the author or even to yourself (boy will you learn about Stress on your first professional gig), to "take your shot" and learn while you're doing it.

Now that's the right advice from me, who has worked for a long time with great, near-great, and horrible producers, including a couple of "we'll learn it on the set", babies - and that last bunch totally sucks to work for... well meaning, indecisive and generally wrong. Find yourself a pro, first. Then you'll actually have a chance at success.

best,
v

A few things -

I never said Jay was not a pro. I know lots of pros who don't ever want to give out free advice or who don't want to work with newbies.

>>>That $150 to $250,000 is probably on target. That's an awful lot of money to give to a first timer,<<<

I just re-read corug7's post and there was no mention of budget there so saying that 150k to 250k's is a lot to give a first timer is implying that corug7 is looking at that amount. As I pointed out you can do a film for much less, in which case would your opinon and Jays and anyone elses be any different? If not than I don't think i need to say anything more.

As for learning on the set - gee whiz, seems like that is where people learn every day and continue to learn. First time directors who get fairly big budget films - feel the same way about them? How about first time DP's? First time stunt men? First time actors? Hell - lets just stop working with anyone who hasn't been in the industry for over 30 years...would that solve the newbie problem for you?

Paperwork is a real killer. you'll need permits for locations, OSHA safety guidelines, contracts for all personnel, actor waivers,....etc.. There are websites that have paperwork examples for producing small films, but make sure they are valid for your state. Remember, you don't want someelse suing you for everything because you assume goodwill in a business transact or failed to get permission to use copyright material. Example would be,ie, the author of this book probably signed over media rights to get the book published. A real bumper to be in a mid of project and find out you do not have clear rights to use the book. As stated above, get as much Pro help you can.



AJP

$150,000 - 250,000 is my quote based on a preliminary budget that i'm hoping to raise (i'm going into a heavy duty fundraising gears in 2-3 months). The budget is based on a short (30 mins) film that was done a shoe string budget but should have much higher. As i started to write down ho much everything costs for teh purpose of raising some completition money i realised that making anything for less than 150g is just not worth the time and effort.

Dave, I fully understood at the time I posted my comments that this would be the reaction I would get. Some times the truth hurts. We've all been on the receiving end of "the truth" at one time or another.

One thing I learned from producer Paul Lazarus (West World, Capricorn One, Barbarosa) was that if you can't handle the reality of this business, then get out of it. Victor's comment, "We've SEEN the results of well-meaning "producers" on their first ventures; who crap away money from well meaning investors" was right on the mark.

The truth is, under these circumstances, at this time, any person who asks such a basic question regarding producing is not in any position to produce a feature-length motion picture, period. That is not an attack on the individual.

As for learning on the set - gee whiz, seems like that is where people learn every day and continue to learn.

Yes, and those "learning" start out as go-fers, not as producers. Tell me, would you be willing to fork over hundreds of thousands of dollars to someone that had never produced before?

First time direcors who get fairly big budget films - fell the same way about them?

Define "first time." Would I hand over $500,000 to a person who had never directed a film or worked with actors before? Absolutely not! Most "first time directors" that finally make their first feature-length movie have made several short films. They have already "learned" what they need to know. The feature-length film is merely the next logical step in their progression.

How about first time DP's?

Would you hire a first time DP who asks, "Where do I put the film?"

First time stunt men?

I've worked with stunt coordinators. You have some guy walk onto a movie set and say, "I want to do stunts," and he asks, "What's a air bag?" he'll get ushered off the set so fast it'll make his head swim! He's a liability, not an asset! "On the set" is not the place nor the time to learn stunt work!

Hell - lets just stop working with anyone who hasn't been in the industry for over 30 years...would that solve the newbie problem for you?

You know that is not at all what I was saying or even implying. Such comments might lead me to believe that perhaps you're not as knowledgable as I thought you were about this industry.

If someone were to approach me, as the above poster did, I would say exactly what I said. If I were approached and the person said something like, "I think I'd like to be a producer. What would you suggest I do to learn?" I'd be more than happy to sit down with them and spend the morning or afternoon discussing it (and have on many occasions). Learning how to produce a movie on someone else's money is not the answer!

Under the above conditions, the most honest answer person can give is something to the effect, "Tell your friend that you are not experienced enough to produce a motion picture at this time." That way you save everyone a great deal of grief, heart-ache, and money!

I guess I'm too old-fashioned. I'm still of the opinion that honesty is the best policy.

Jay

I take no personal offense to comments about me and I certainly am not bitter. But, time and time again I see wannabees that have no clue to what they are doing (I've also worked with professionals like this). I am just being realist in my ditto response to Jay_Gladwells post. In fact, I would bet that hell will freeze over before any funding is acquired on this project.

Sorry.

"The budget is based on a short (30 mins) film that was done a shoe string budget but should have much higher"

This is what can kill you. The market for shorts is pretty limited, unless you're just padding your portfolio. As for investors, you've got to be pretty darn creative to get them their money back on a short. Depending on locations, you could go feature length for $200,000 +. It's bare bones, I know, but you need to do some research on shorts. Very little market value.

Mike

Wow, I guess that is what asking a broad and general question will get you. I was simply trying to bounce this off of some people who have had experience raising funds for a movie, since sometimes one can overlook obvious sources. I'm not looking to make a blockbuster, but maybe something that can be liscenced to Lifetime or even (gulp) straight to video, since most of the women who need to see it won't be going to the theater anyway. Yes, the subject matter is depressing. So is the subject matter for Mystic River, or, more on the scale I'm looking to produce at, In the Bedroom, which was, by the way, the director's first feature film. I have very good material to work with, with few location changes, most of which could be accomplished within 60 miles of where I live. More later

If the Film is to have a Producer then its his job to keep a tight rein on the Pursestrings.. As well as Seeking Funding.. Its also a Job where you have to be in Control and Know everything because people will look to you for Answers...

Make sure you choose cast and crew that you get on with and are within your Budget... You will have to keep Control when others are losing theirs... AS everyones Visions and egos are squashed SO you have to be the peacemaker and confidence builder.. A good Producer can be the determining factor in the Movies successs... Also Dont pick favourites and maintain a Professional Distance... You may have to Hire and Fire in a ruthless manner.. Make sure you account for all costs... Dont let anyone go overbudget without your say so... Get Someone who can talk people into helping ..If you cant.. Delegate the Jobs that you are not that good at... Save Money go to charity shops for Costumes...

AT the end of it you will not be thanked the Director and Actors will take the Bows...Thats Life though..

I expected a few smart alecks, but not so much vitrol! Jay, are you on heart medication? Filmy and those of you who have taken the time to impart knowledge, thanks. I have produced some low (read no) budget shorts and I do feel that I can stretch a buck farther than most. I produced, directed, edited, and composed music and sang on my last one (Jay, maybe I'll shoot you an mp3 of my songs so you can be my Simon Cowell). And come on, lighten up. I already know that I will have time, effort, money, body, mind, soul, sweat, blood, vomit, and maybe even some unmentionable body fluids invested in this project. I was just hoping maybe some of you could persuade your sweet old rich grandmothers to throw some money my way. That is a joke...

>>>I guess I'm too old-fashioned. I'm still of the opinion that honesty is the best policy.<<<

Me too. I speak my mind. But I am more than willing to 'give back' to those who want to learn or jsut keep learning.

>>>Such comments might lead me to believe that perhaps you're not as knowledgable as I thought you were about this industry.<<<

Irony is not allowed in the industry? LOL!

>>>Define "first time."<<<

First time means just that - the "first time" someone has done somehting. I was hired on a film to produce where the director was a first time director. This was a feature and It was a nightmare. Why? Partly because it was a first time director. I did not hire him, it was a decision made out of film making politics and the end result was the film suffered massivly. However I will say this - being a first time director may not have stopped me had I had the choice to hire him. Why? Because he had a long effects background and he had done many films working as the effects co-ordiantor...in a sense "directing" those minature shots. This was an effects based action film and in early discussions he flat out said he could not do the effects at such a low budget. So the investors and the executive producers made the choice to offer him to director to see if it would help secure his effects work...and it did. He directed and did the effects and I can understand the logic in that business decission however shooting was a nightmare because he insisted he had to have "his" crew - the gaffer who became a first time DP on this film and whose motto was "We can't do that". And the DP insisting on his first AC who thought he was 'Joe Cool' and Gods gift to the female gender and who would stand next to the camera with sunglasses on hitting on all the females and whose motto was "Can't do that, not my job" and it went on from there (Such as the 'must have, best in the biz' gaffer who was there all of 3 days of the shoot - he earned the nickname "sandbag"). However let me be perfectly clear in this - even this nightmare would not stop me from working with a first timer again. What it did was assure me I will never allow a "gang" mentality again - don't let anyone dictate the entire crew to the point it becomes their "gang" of "can't do that" vs the rest of the crew who are trying to make a movie. For sure it put me in a catch 22 - fire the director and loose most all of the crew. And trust me - the director was threated to be fired on the spot one time. I told the entrie crew one night that they would be replaced if they were not on set the next day. The director has never directed anything since by the way. He has continued doing effects work however.

As for stunt men - I go back to a film I worked on in maybe 1983. We were shooting a night scene in downton LA, a place we nicknamed piss alley because of the smell. I was not the producer on this film by the way, but the story relates. These 2 guys come up to me and ask who to talk to about stunt work. I sent them over to the producer. Didn't think anything of it. Maybe 3 weeks later we were shooting in Colorado, up in the Rocky Mountains, a car chase scene. I ask "Where did you get the stunt drivers?" and the reply was "Oh those are the guys you found." Turns out these were the two guys who had asked me who they should talk to that night. They were "first timers" and they really wanted to get into stunt work and they offered to work for free on the film. They went over the stunts with the director and then went out and rented the car, went to a track and worked on the stunt for 2 weeks - at their own cost. Wasn't my choce to hire these guys - but they did a good job for first timers. Would I have done the same thing had I been the producer? I have no idea. Considering I have worked on films where so called "professional" stuntmen have been hired and done way less of an impressive job for a lot more money it would make me lean towards "young and hungry wannabe" over "Seasoned pro who doesn't care".

>>>Would you hire a first time DP who asks, "Where do I put the film?"<<<

No, but that is what the AC's and loader do. That was a bit ironic and meant a a joke however being able to load film into a mag does not equate to being able to oversee lighting or being able to operate a camera smoothly. I would, and do, ask to see the DP's reel first. If they said they did not have one I would look elsewhere. BUT - saying that leads to the question of "How can they have a reel if it is their first time?" Well - as I said before "first time" means that - but maybe they have a reel showcasing some music videos they have shot. Or maybe a reel of their commercial work. Or maybe even tests shots they have done on their own. Now if the question was "Would you hire someone who had never touched a camera of any kind before to shoot a feature film?" My answer would be no.

And that leads into Jay and others probably saying "Hey - so than why would you hire a first time producer to produce?" Well what Jay and others aren't saying here is in many cases it comes down to politics. I have worked with producers who have never produced...and who really don't. Someone who invests a larger sum of money - provided they get a producer credit. A casting director who will cut down their fee in exchange for a producer credit. The directors girlfriend. I think you get the idea. So my reply to the implied question of "would you hire a first time producer?" depends on what strong points they could bring to the table. If it was the situation that corug7 asked about and they could bring in lots of money than sure - I would give them a producer credit if that is what they wanted in exchange for the money to go forward. If they were a casting director who could bring in some names, sure. There are many other reasons producer credits are handed out as well, it is not always about actually producing. And the reverse of that is if someone came to me with a "package" - "Here is a book and the author wants this person to produce it or else it won't get made" than you obviously, as a potential executive producer or director or studio or backer - have a choice to make. I can remember back in the 80's that Cannon films signed up Tobe Hooper to a multi picture deal. It included directing Spiderman. If I remember correctly the only way they could get the rights was if they also got Tobe and gave him a multi picture deal. Clearly Spiderman with Tobe and Cannon never happened.

>>>Would I hand over $500,000 to a person who had never directed a film or worked with actors before? Absolutely not! <<<

But clearly many have. Look at the MTV age we live in - how many music video directors suddenly got handed larger sums of money to direct a feature? How many people who had done commercials go on to direct a feature? So clearly part of the question is about a director who has never worked with "actors" - and that is a misleading question. I don't consider telling a model to shake her butt into the lens, or the lead singer to look right into the camera and look sexy, the same as going over the characters background with your lead actor on a feature. However clearly many directors are not hired because they can work with actors - it is because they have a great visual style or because they come from second unit stunt/action directing. So would I hire someone who has directed great action sequences, sans actors, over someone who had won an academy award for a talking head drama to direct an action film? Yes. Would I hire the same director to direct a film version of the book in question? Probably not.

>>those "learning" start out as go-fers, not as producers. <<

Old school for sure. On the one hand I fully agree you don't step onto a set as a director or producer or DP or what not, being direct out of the womb. However you also are not required to step onto the set and be the person who gets paper cups and coffee in order to learn how to produce. FWIW I have never ever worked on anything where it was my job to be the go-fer. (However have I gotten things because I had some free time and was willing to help out? Sure) You hire these people - you hire the assistants and the grips and the best boys and so on because they have, in theory, applied. You do not take someone who says "I want to produce" and send them out to clean the porta potties telling them "This is how you learn". I say "old school" because I have seen the attitude on many a set - the people who think it is funny to send the FNG out on non-stop errands or the "old timer" who makes them do it because that is how "I got into the business". At some point these people smarten up and relize they are not learning anything by sitting in their car driving around to Costco picking up stuff. On the other hand certian job specific "runner" type jobs are fine, and expected - the prop master can send his runner all over picking up props. Someone in the art department can spend all day getting paint and brushes. Is that a learning experiance? Yes it is if that assistant wants to learn about that specific area.

Bottom line really is that there are those who live by the 'book' and will tell you "this is the ONLY way" to do something. Then there is a reality about how many films get made all over the world each year. Not all of them are Hollywood productions by any means. Doesn't make them bad nor does it make them great...but it means there is work out there for people. Lots of room to learn and grow.

>>>Dave, I fully understood at the time I posted my comments that this would be the reaction I would get. Some times the truth hurts. We've all been on the receiving end of "the truth" at one time or another.<<<

Your truth is not everyones truth. I rememebr years ago there would be this guy who would do lectures on "How to Produce a film for under $250,000" and people thought he was a joke. Another guy was doing something like that but I think his was on how to do it for under $50,000. But you you could do it then despite those who said "no you can't! The truth hurts" and now, thanks to video being cheap, quality being better than some of the no-budget drive in flicks many of us 'old timers' grew up on, and software like Vegas - you can do it for well under $5,000 with a full crew of newbies and "first timers". (Not that I would recomed doing a feature for under $5,000 however my main point is that you *can* and if you really want to do it you *can* do it)

Yes Jay the truth does hurt doesn't it?

Very nice post Mark!!

Well, Dave, if you think anything you've posted has hurt me, then think again. Because nothing could be further from the truth.

Jay

>>>Well, Dave, if you think anything you've posted has hurt me, then think again. Because nothing could be further from the truth.<<<

LOL! This thread is getting kind of funny. Where on earth did you read anything aimed a hurting you? Your the one who first said "The truth hurts" so I did an editorial twist with a set up and the punch line becomes your own words being fed back to you in an agreeable way - "Yes Jay the truth does hurt doesn't it?". So you must have been hurt by something I said to point out that what I said did not hurt you. ;)