OT: Another strike against Blu Ray

p@mast3rs wrote on 9/4/2007, 1:41 PM
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=43403

The Blu-Ray Disc Association is permanently crippling BD-R playback in new players now. It is being done to curb piracy, at the expense of people who like to produce their own hidef discs (for weddings, sports events, backups, etc). They are apparently coming out with special AACS blanks, but they aren't available now and it is unknown how compatible they will be - and they could be very expensive.

Say goodbye to open formats like DVD-R/DVD+R if Blu-Ray wins the format war:

Quote:
Originally Posted by paidgeek, Sony Insider/Employee on AVSFORUM
Blu-ray players were never supposed to support BDMV authored content using ordinary data type BD-R or BD-RE media. An exemption was made for a number of months so that available blank discs could be used for testing and other promotional activities; this exemption expired recently...

...The players were not permitted to play movie content from the current blank media to begin with. There was an exception made for a short period of time to help facilitate testing and demonstrations. This issues has been given consideration since before the launch of the format. The fundamental issue is easy to understand. The studios cannot accept the use of blank media for making clones of copyrighted discs. The computer industry wants to empower consumers to fully utilize the format and that is fine, so long as measures are taken to protect copyright...


So how else are you supposed to play BD authored time lines from Vegas now?

Comments

Laurence wrote on 9/4/2007, 1:59 PM
Any source to this info that isn't from a forum?
apit34356 wrote on 9/4/2007, 2:21 PM
It appears to be more FUD. It seems that everyone forgots that DVDIT PRO HD burns menus and movies very well.
fwtep wrote on 9/4/2007, 2:25 PM
Yeah, this sounds like either a complete fabrication, or more likely a complete misunderstanding. The part about "and they could be very expensive" just sounds like alarmist nonsense since there's no inherent reason they'd cost more.

By the way, why "another strike?" What were the first strikes?
apit34356 wrote on 9/4/2007, 2:32 PM
The studios have created a new layer on top the media that is a special encoded feature that can not be duplicated by standard BD Burners. This has nothing to do with burning menus and movies, unless your trying to du a original disc and pass it as an original. This layer basically just states "Original content" and a few other things. This feature does not affect any media being played that a BD user by produce.
blink3times wrote on 9/4/2007, 2:41 PM
Well, I for one would be a little surprised if this were true!?! Although it is my considered opinion that Sony is or has done something a little strange with BDMV for personal use... but this seems a little extreme to say the least.

It would be very interesting to see if someone can come up with a link, because if there is any truth to this at all... it would be a disaster for people like us
blink3times wrote on 9/4/2007, 2:56 PM
I don't know but this rumor SEEMS to be all over the place:

http://forums.support.roxio.com/index.php?showtopic=23713
apit34356 wrote on 9/4/2007, 2:57 PM
"Another strike against Blu Ray" some wishful thinking from the HD DVD crowd? The HD DVD crowd has been crying "where are all the BD standalone players?", well, at the IFA07 all the BD partners introduce a large number of standalone players, ranging in price and availability. A number PC OEMs introduce Media Centers with BD players adding to the BD product line.

At the IFA07, HD DVD PR hype got a closer examination , it was fun watching them spin EU success story of PC HD DVD player drives as showing they ruled the EU market( avoided discussing US or Japan). Reporters quickly asked details and did the calculations which was not the result that HD DVD PR wanted. Maybe the Christmas will be better- not.

Cheap BD or HD DVD player may kill a lot cheap DVD manufacturers. DVD players prices are so low, they don't have room and cost of shipping just keeps rising. These players will probably disappear sooner than later because of raw product cost, not enough mark up for retailers. But SD DVDs will probably be around for awhile.

Oh, the WII, a great marketing success, is starting to lose it's lead( a little) on the PSP3 in Japan. PSP3 sales in Japan are increasing by good margins, but WII is still a success story in itself.
blink3times wrote on 9/4/2007, 3:02 PM
"some wishful thinking from the HD DVD crowd? The HD DVD crowd has been crying "where are all the BD standalone players?","
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You're missing the point... this has little to do with HD DVD. There are people saying this that are not connected to HD DVD. Let's not cloud the issue with hd dvd/bd stuff right now.... I want to find out if this si true or not.
apit34356 wrote on 9/4/2007, 3:20 PM
blink3times, I already pointed out the new layer, but it is not an issue. Don't you have DVDIT PROHD ? Just burn a disc, I have seen no problems but maybe you will find one. I don't burn enough volume to really test this one AVS forum claim to track down the real issue if it exist, which I do doubt. I do see a lot technical data on both "products" concerning design errors - solutions and temporary patches from the big kids and what I can said outside the NDAs is that AVS forums rumors that I have seen are just rumors. I view this AVS forum rumor as more mis-information about BD or a simple creation error that is being used to push mis-information.
blink3times wrote on 9/4/2007, 3:39 PM
"Don't you have DVDIT PROHD ? Just burn a disc, I have seen no problems but maybe you will find one. I don't burn enough volume to really test this one AVS forum.
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This link IS NOT from AVS... it is STRAIGHT from Roxio (dvditpro):

http://forums.support.roxio.com/index.php?showtopic=23713
farss wrote on 9/4/2007, 3:46 PM
Great, so even disks made with Sony's own utilities will not work.
Kind of explains perhaps why Sony down here are pushing the PS2 as the player of choice. In some ways I prefer the technical aspects of BD over HD DVD, if only the thing didn't have the name Sony associated with it, it might have had a chance.
blink3times wrote on 9/4/2007, 7:09 PM
"Great, so even disks made with Sony's own utilities will not work.
Kind of explains perhaps why Sony down here are pushing the PS2 as the player of choice. In some ways I prefer the technical aspects of BD over HD DVD, if only the thing didn't have the name Sony associated with it, it might have had a chance."
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Well... this is why I prefer HD DVD... it SEEMS to be much more straight forward in the burning department. We however have yet to test REAL hd dvd burning... maybe I will end up with egg on my face... but not so far anyway.

At any rate... in defense of BD I did find this:

"Hi, all,

In this thread here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11242220#post11242220

So I don't THINK Sony is trying to consciously remove BDMV capacity from the books. But regardless... this entire BDMV thing has become a fairly complicated mess which I find to be pretty stunning given the amount of time it has been on the market.
Laurence wrote on 9/4/2007, 7:53 PM
I do happen to own Roxio DVD Pro HD. I only bought Ulead MF Plus after realizing that I couldn't author discs that would play back consistently accross Blu-ray players. I was pretty firmly in the Blu-ray camp until I actually started trying to author HD content discs.

Right now it looks to me like Blu-ray is trying to discourage burning HD content on actual Blu-ray blanks and instead encouraging low volume producers into using the AVCHD on DVD+-R format instead. This is conjecture however. I'd love to know the official stance.

Here's another question:

Some people have authored AVCHD discs using Nero, and it looks like DVDA 5 will probably support AVCHD. How professional a look with menus and content can you get with the AVCHD format?
Zelkien69 wrote on 9/4/2007, 8:50 PM
Whats DVDA5????? Just kidding, halfway....like 4.5 steps to joking.
apit34356 wrote on 9/4/2007, 9:08 PM
Blink, you posted early aug8 postings from the AVS forum ,
did you read the entire thread before posting? Trying to create a little smoke?
this was posted of avs on aug17
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First of all, for those who have been waiting for my follow-up post on this topic, thanks for your patience...

After doing some research, here is what I have been able to clarify.

Blu-ray players first manufactured after Spring of this year are required to support BD-RE v3.0 media (AACS enabled) for playback of recordings where copyright has been asserted (e.g. digital broadcast, managed copy from a Blu-ray movie and similar).
These same players may playback authored content from other sources (e.g. home movies) where copyright is not asserted from either BD-RE V3.0 or v2.1 (currently available) media.

An exception was made for players produced before Spring this year such that they may playback authored BD movie content from BD-RE V2.1 media, even though they may not support V3.0 media. The PS3 is already fully compliant with the latest requirements. Other players may or may not be depending on current firmware revisions.

The simple summary is that a consumer can author their own content as they wish using currently available media and play it back on any player that was released prior to Spring 07' as well as any player released since that time, provided that the player can support BD-RE V3.0 media. If a newer player cannot yet support that media type, then BD-RE 2.1 support can be enabled as soon as firmware allows the player to do so.

The specifications are designed not to inconvenience any customer who wants to author content they own.
__________________
Sony Pictures BD Insider
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then on aug18
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Originally Posted by wakashizuma
Thanks alot Paidgeek.

What is the difference between V3 and V2.1? Is it only software wise and does it relate to physical discs as well?
So If I go out and buy a BD-R disc and burn it as a home made movie, is it considered V2.1 or V3.0?
The new players that support V3.0; do they also support V2.1?

Again I want to thank you for taking your time and answering these questions (I'm a huge fan of making home authored discs)
There is a physical difference in the media between V3 and V2.1. You can read about this in excruciating detail from the AACS Blu-ray recording specification.

You should be able to use either media type for personal content, though there may be some added expense for V3 media since it involves additional complexity in manufacturing.

Any player that supports V3 media will support V2.1 as well.
__________________
Sony Pictures BD Insider



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As I pointed out earlier, the new media is different. But as stated before, rumors.
farss wrote on 9/4/2007, 9:42 PM
Suggest you check page 6 of the BDPS300 manual, quite specific about not playing:

BD-REs/BD-Rs
BDs with cartridge
DVD-RWs/DVD-Rs of VR mode
DVD-RAMs
HD DVDs
DVD Audio disks
etc

Bob.
Laurence wrote on 9/4/2007, 9:45 PM
I just did a search for anybody selling the BD-RE V3.0 media, and of course can't find any. The point is, you can't really make a Blu-ray disc that will playback accross all (or even most) Blu-ray players. 60% or 70% compatibility simply isn't good enough. That is why so many of us are in the HD DVD camp.

What I still don't know is how good a product can I make in the Blu-ray compatible AVCHD disc format?

As I see it, it's not so much a matter of "HD DVD vs Bluray" as it is "3x DVD vs AVCHD disc".
apit34356 wrote on 9/4/2007, 10:37 PM
Farss, I have read the Sony online manual for BD 300 line for BD-re/BD-rs and did not find this(can you point to a source that I can recheck the documents I have from Sony).

--OK---- just review the Sony Style PDF listing of BDPS300 and as you stated, page 6 clearly states. This is different than the Docus that I have. I guessing its a matter of legal wording to officially state you will play all BD-Rs videos vs. "sure you can".

I believe it has been stated DVDs and BD-r are optional features, not required by BD, similar to DVD format does not require players to play DVD+r,RW.. That said, the latest firmware versions, are "permitting" BD-rs to play.

This is strictly a guess, but if you remember the CD issue about music, there were cheap cds, then there was Sony's music CD that had a royalty fee for music incorporated into the price. I'm wondering if Sony was considering two types of BD media, one for general data and one for "content". The one for content had a royalty fee added to the cost but also would play without "issues". Like the media 3.0.( I'm pissing someone off)

Laurence wrote on 9/4/2007, 10:49 PM
Well in the CD world, CDs that were designed for music rather than data included a hefty extra charge which was supposed to be paid to artists "en masse" in order to compensate them for the music you were probably pirating. I expect that this is the same sort of thing but with some kind of copy protected AAC subdirectory attached to keep people from using the cheaper discs.
blink3times wrote on 9/5/2007, 3:00 AM
"Blink, you posted early aug8 postings from the AVS forum ,
did you read the entire thread before posting? Trying to create a little smoke?"
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Well, first apit.... I quite resent this. I am NOT trying to create "smoke"... I'm trying to get this cleared up, There are some serious questions here that need some answers... because if HD DVD DOES die... THIS mess is what we're going to be stuck with. So I strongly suggest you check your emotions at the door and start taking a good long OBJECTIVE look at this. Second I did not realize there was an update. Third, apparently an update makes no difference because the manual clearly states what it will not play.

If anyone is creating "smoke" here apit... it is your beloved BDA. So instead of crucifying me, you would be best served in putting the blame where the blame is due.

Point blank... blu ray burning is a mess.... and that's not MY fault.
Xander wrote on 9/5/2007, 5:31 AM
Version 3 of Bluray in less than a year. I guess this is a sign of things to come for any format - it is going to be patched and patched and patched. Kind of reminds me of what MS does with Windows and look how well that performs.
John_Cline wrote on 9/5/2007, 5:47 AM
"Kind of reminds me of what MS does with Windows and look how well that performs."

Windows performs quite well on my machine. Thank you very much.
blink3times wrote on 9/5/2007, 5:52 AM
"Version 3 of Bluray in less than a year. I guess this is a sign of things to come for any format - it is going to be patched and patched and patched. Kind of reminds me of what MS does with Windows and look how well that performs."
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Yes.. I have both Vista AND "windows" and I have no problems

But more to the point, this is not a "patch" situation. As Bob points out, the BDPS300 manual clearly states that BD-r is not supported. Of course maybe this changes sometime down the road... but for now you have no choice but to swallow what the manual states. The question I have is WHY is Sony actively choosing not to support it??
winrockpost wrote on 9/5/2007, 6:22 AM
just an uninformed opinion: All i know is the whole hdv-hd to dvd is a confusing pia..Don't know or care who wins the battle of the format wars... since i have yet to have any client ask for a hd disc. Once i do .. yep.. I'll care, and i suspect the war will be over and i'll go to the big box store and buy a burner from the winner of this battle of corporate stupidity.. In the meantime my cam works quite well as a playback device for me , and any client that wants to view or present hd. Just did a video for an event that was played on 9 plasma widescreens ,, hdv from a cam loaned to the a/v company was to be my delivery method.. till i found out they were sd plasmas...this stuff is still in its infancy believe it or not.