>>>2.3% today. Of course, to the artsy community this might be a symbol of pride--"We're differernt!"<<<

That's just not different at all.

I and many people who build their own PCs possibly have the only machine like that on the planet ( now that is the real different ).

Win2K still ofers more than any MacOS to date ( but let's not get into that here , just ask yourself, can you run Vegas, Fusion or XSI on a Mac OS )

Well, they need some far reaching improvements like a programmable "10 gig EPROM" for the operating system to eliminate booting these machines. Apllications will then access the eprom for initial installation, then add the harddrives for the other stuff. How about some "comparison" type software to compare anything to anything that we can afford. Maybe a practical "reverse thermocouple" cooling system built into the processor to eliminate the fans. (Borg Warner has had this since Appollo went to the moon) Maybe a real 3-D camcorder-computer combo. Maybe an on the fly DNA analyser to keep track of people instead of a subcutaneous chip. Finally, a chip that sucks up radiation and changes it to gold------I like that one the best.

JJK

i wouldn't worry about the "worldwide penetration" %'s. REmember, you can get a PC for $300 that's relative crap, which is what most people want. So, majority of PC penetration is throw away garbage but 100% of apple penetration is solid systems.

Just want to comment on my opinion. The success of the iPod has been the marketing. Simply put... end of story.

Personally I see the iPod realize and its just the equivalent of the Walkman and Discman that we experienced in the 80's and 90's. Yes, the technology is better... blah blah blah.... but it is still a mobile listening device.

Is it also fair to say... the iPod saved Apples butt financially. (ie since the iPod... investors are happy).

Chad

And marketing is what led VHS to be the dominant consumer video format over Beta. Beta was technically superior in every way. Of course, it means nothing at this point, analog tape formats are virtually dead anyway. (Thankfully.)

Come to think of it, it's also marketing that made McDonalds so successful, it certainly wasn't the quality or taste of their food.

With Apple, it's marketing and snob appeal.

John

that's what gave Sony the (temporary) lead with the PSP too. Marketing works for the first year. If the ipod REALLY sucked, it wouldn't sell as well by now.

But.... with all the HD audio comming out, the next one who markets that stuff sucessfully will then topple apple (unless they get it first, odds are they will). With the amount of space we have on those little devices I could easily see someone like Creative marketing a HD "mp3" player that offers hours of HD audio or days/weeks worth of "mp3" quality audio.

iPod customers don't wake up in the morning saying, "Was it good for you too? Now I'd really like to listen to an MP3 file on a device with a line input!"

Doh! How about something more like, "Now I want music and podcasts, what's the easiest way?"

iPod is 100% focused on that. Their marketing is important, but the concept is even more what has created its success.

Perhaps this is best illustrated by the created by one of Microsoft's product managers, showing what would happen if the iPod had been taken over by MS.

"Come to think of it, it's also marketing that made McDonalds so successful, it certainly wasn't the quality or taste of their food."

Actually, that's not all true. I think the biggest factor for both Apple iPod and McDonald's has been consistency. You can walk into any McD's from Baltimore to Burbank and pretty much know the fries will be hot, the coke cold, the burgers.. well, edible, and that it'll cost around XYZ 24 hours a day. My girlfriend can use her iPod, her friend's iPod, her sister's iPod, but has no idea how to use my Creative MP3 player. She is certainly smart enough to use it, she just doesn't know how and doesn't need to learn how. Sort of the same reason I don't know how to use Mac OS, or Linux... I DON'T HAVE to learn it since MS has made computing consistent. For good or ill.

Anyway, who gives a crap if the iPod is $100 dollars or so more than the other devices? If it's standardized, if it can be accessorized, customized, and can be connected and controlled by a whole host of items from home stereos to BMW's, to boom boxes to PC's where's the problem? If my next car can connect to an iPod and can control the iPod, I'd get one in a heartbeat.

It's not snob appeal that drives sales, its a good device that has a now universal interface that anyone can use and an easy way for people to share music and enjoy music in ways that people like. VHS won because of marketing and longer record times. Okay, Beta had 20% better resolution, higher S/N ratio, and all that. But when you are recording fuzzy reruns of Happy Days off of "rabbit ears" does it really matter?

My girlfriend doesn't need line inputs, her iPod Nano is way way too small to use AAA batteries (like my creative), she could care less about listening to FM radio, and dragging and dropping files is done within iTunes.

Now, don't get me started on the Apple store... that place "smells like hippies" as I'm fond of saying.

I'll never forget my first day running a company that was developing products for the Mac. I'd never used a Mac, and thought, "wow, I'll finally get to experience how neat this is." Imagine my surprise when I found out that Macs do exactly the same thing as other computers; that my Mac crashed just as often as my PC; and that it was considerably slower than any PC I had used.

That was in 1992.

Fast forward to the present. I purchased an iPod Shuffle for my daughter for Christmas, and a week ago gave my son an iPod (30GB) for graduation. Both of them like their iPods, but absolutely HATE iTunes (as do I). That program, and the whole Apple design philosophy, is that you have to do it THEIR way (which, I guess means they will never merge with Burger King).

More important the idiocy (my fault, I'll admit) of having just purchased two very expensive products which will be completely useless in as little as a year or two when the batteries give out is beyond belief*.

Earth to iPod users: We are all idiots!!

Can you imagine the uproar if any company other than Apple made such a design decision (to obsolete the product when the batteries expire)?

I have a generic MP3 player that uses CompactFlash cards. It sounds great, costs nothing, uses AA batteries (including NiMh rechargeables). It look lousy, and doesn't have the navigation elegance of the iPod (although it is far better than the Shuffle). I've had it for three years. Works great.

So, the Apple religion has lots of zealous followers, but when you get past the wonderful industrial design, it is tough to defend their products based solely on technical merits.



* OK, I know you can get the battery replaced, but not exactly a cheap option:

http://www.apple.com/support/ipod/service/battery/

Wait, you don't like iTunes and you still bought an iPod?

Do you know Carlos Mencia on Comedy Central. He has a sound he makes when people do stuff like that. No offense (ha ha).

* OK, I know you can get the battery replaced, but not exactly a cheap option:

That's the understatement of the year!!
$65.95 and your songs and files will not be transferred to your replacement iPod.
And I thought Avid was the only rip-off company out there :-)

Mike

Wait, you don't like iTunes and you still bought an iPod?

The indefensible cannot be defended. I will only say, by way of explanation, that my son had gotten straight A's (actually all A+, says proud daddy) for the whole year, and HE wanted it as a graduation present. It was only after he installed and used iTunes that he discovered the awful truth himself ...

Now if I could find a way to hack iTunes so it would refuse to upload any song containing any of George Carlin's seven words ...

Ha Ha. Yeah, I see your dilemma--plus it's a gift. I actually bought the iPod for my girlfriend as a gift and got myself a cheapo MP3 player.

John,

You don't know how to shop! :O)

Pay $9.95 instead for a new Li-ion battery and a replacement kit with simple instructions.

There was a battery problem with a previous generation of iPods, I think it was the third generation (the current is fifth generation). With today's iPods, it's not likely you'll even need to spend $9.95 anytime soon.

I paid $236 for my 30GB Video iPod at Overstock.com (with a coupon of course) + $2.95 for shipping, this doesn't seem outrageous for this capability (the only one with a truly standardized video format in widespread use).

I'm glad Apple only does computers/ipods…
The thought of Apple shoes, condoms…or anything else…
I could hear the chatter now – Shoes: you actually walk in those shoes?
Condoms: Do you know the failure rate of your brand?

Great big bucking chicken – Burger King

Geez, another thread dissing Apple. How original.

Um--how DID Apple capture that video editing niche? Through the Photoshop door?

Not that I'm thinking of jumping ship, but remember Patton's claim to fame-- "Hey Rommel, I read your book!"
,

Um--how DID Apple capture that video editing niche?

Actually, that is worth answering, since this is a video editing forum.

Despite the fact that most of what Apple has done is way over-hyped, they are not simply a product of slick marketing. The one thing they have done consistently well beyond marketing and industrial design is to provide turn-key solutions. I think they invented the phrase "out of box experience:" Take it out of the box, and it works. Like an appliance. They extended this to video editing. Plug things in and your video transfers to the computer, and you can edit, all without much muss or fuss. And at least in the days when video editing was first becoming widespread, you could edit on an Apple Mac without worrying about 1394 cards, and drivers, and upgrading all the various (Windows) components that didn't quite work right.

Of course with XP SP1 and now SP2, much of that is behind us, and Windows is almost as simple, but it wasn't always that way.

So, that's the answer on how Apple captured the niche. Now, whether they can hold onto it is entirely another story ...

As to why people bash Apple, some of this is aimed at any company that has had some success. Also, any company that has a certain presumed arrogance about its success, is going to garner more hits. And finally, when a company provides fewer options to its customers than do competing companies, while some may welcome not being forced to make choices that they don't want to deal with, others will be annoyed that they are being forced to do things in ways that are contrary to their normal workflow. That's why you see the "Apple bashing" so often. People get annoyed at the lack of choices on things that are important to them.

"Their marketing is important, but the concept is even more what has created its success"

Partly right, but I believe you are referring more to advertising. The critical part of marketing is what happens up front, before the engineers get to cranking. Things like "Line-In" or not. 99c iTunes.

Clearly the Market speaks, and if you want to talk to the market, you better speak Marketing. No matter what you might think about iPod, I'd say empirical evidence is that Apple hit the market bulls eye.

agree iPod's success is all due to:

a) marketing

and

b) perceived ease of use


there's better products out there, with bigger screens etc... but the
ipod is today's "walkman" ... great idea is to produce video especially
for ipod users, formatted/distributed, including lessons, dvd content etc

ken

Dissing Apple, you say? Maybe…I just spilled my Mac Kool-Ad when OSX hit.
I’m one of the poor saps that got burned by the death of OS9.

I use & like My Macs – I use OS9 and like it.
I went to a PC to edit when $10,000 wroth of my Mac software & plug-ins became obsolete due to OSX.

When it comes to dissing – how about “I’m a Mac & I’m a PC” (that can’t seem to do anything cool like a Mac can)

It seems when you poke fun at Apple it’s taken personally.
No so much with a MS/PC

So when I have got 10,000 worth of laughs about Apple, then I’ll be satisfied.

That's the thing, if MS were as arrogant as Apple then they'd not have such a mess of an OS and we'd have zero backwards compatibility.
Of ALL the PC programs ever written probably 98% of them will run on WinXP, now hat's the percentage of programs written for Macs that'll run under OSX?

Intel could do the same thing too, ditch the X86 instruction set and start again except....

Bob.