OT: External Monitor

xjerx wrote on 3/8/2006, 5:05 PM
I don't have the kind of money to purchase a professional broadcast monitor, so I was wondering if a regular 20" or smaller (CRT) TV would do the job...(for CC and such). I walked around best buy and saw a 20" samsung for $150..looked pretty good....don't wanna really spend more than that. Don't need anything to fancy...just wanna make sure my stuff looks good on TV

thanks
Jeremiah

Comments

johnmeyer wrote on 3/8/2006, 5:10 PM
You can do wonderful things with a really cheap monitor. The key thing is to use a real TV to preview your stuff, especially when doing color calibration. The computer monitor just isn't the same thing.

The one thing you DO need to do (true of any monitor, but especially a cheap one) is to calibrate it. Used to be a monitor calibration tutorial over here:

Color Calibration.

Someone else may be able to suggest a better tutorial.
busterkeaton wrote on 3/8/2006, 6:06 PM
Toshiba has a 14'' model that has S video in.

You should take a look at what you need to calibrate and then see if the TV has all those controls. Some don't.
John_Cline wrote on 3/8/2006, 6:42 PM
Here's another one:

Color Bars and how to use them

John
johnmeyer wrote on 3/8/2006, 7:14 PM
Ideally, you want a TV monitor that lets you disable all but the blue channel. The alternative (which I use) is a blue filter, but you have to have the right blue filter, and even then it doesn't let you do quite as good a job.
craftech wrote on 3/9/2006, 7:51 PM
You can get a Wratten 47B gel (filter) from some photo shops. A Rosco #80 also works, but a Rosco #64 looks better.
The comb filters in some TVs throw the color off somewhat, but you can compensate. The S-Video on a small monitor isn't really necessary. You can't tell the difference. The best way to adjust it is to aim the camera at something colorful like a can with fruit on it or the like and visually compare the image on the screen with what you are seeing especially in terms of saturation.
John
GlennChan wrote on 3/9/2006, 8:17 PM
1- A broadcast monitor is a lot easier to calibrate.

In comparison, consumer TVs can be a little wacky because:
They are designed to be as bright as possible. One tradeoff made is that consumer TVs have a very high color temperature / are a bit blue-ish in comparison to the standard (or to room lighting).
Flesh tone "correction". Anything close to flesh tone hue gets 'squeezed' towards flesh tone hue. Flesh tones will also look right, but there will be distortions for colors close to flesh tone in hue.
Different phosphor composition. Pure red/green/blue will look different between monitors.
Excessive sharpening.
Scanning velocity modulation.
Red push. At the higher color temperature, the viewer will see reds as being more de-saturated. So the device compensates for this by oversaturating the reds.
The comb filter on the composite/RCA connection may not be that great, so you get lots of cross-color artifacts (i.e. rainbows on black and white images). S-video won't have this. Many people watch off composite anyways, so this may not necessarily be bad if you want to monitor for it.
The monitor is overdriven that the electron beam loses focus slightly, and/or there is geometric distortion.
Because they are so bright, underexposed footage tends to look fine.

Consumer televisions are kind of like mystery meat. That's good to know before you think the consumer television is what your work will actually look like.

2- The gels aren't going to be perfect at blocking all the red and green light. The "green" phosphors in a TV will emit some wavelengths that are in the blue spectrum anyways. The cheap way to get a gel is to get a sample gel pack made by Lee, Rosco, or GAM. You may be able to snag these for free off B&H (tack it onto another order) or from a local rental or equipment house. Look for the gels with the sharpest cutoff... the violet gels will work too.

Try these alternate color bars (vegas 6 .veg):
http://www.glennchan.info/Proofs/dvinfo/flashing%20bars.veg

What you want to do with those bars is to minimize the flashing of the bars. Be sure to enable loop playback. Hold the gel over your eyes while you tweak the hue control.

Corrolary: I've found that on my home television, that method doesn't work that well. The flesh tones look screwed up afterwards. I just decided to eye ball the flesh tones so that they look natural. I haven't looked into this that deeply.

The S-Video on a small monitor isn't really necessary. You can't tell the difference.
You should see the cross-color artifacts disappear (the false color on high frequency detail).

On some monitors, the resolution will also go up (this depends on how bad the composite convertor/demodulator is).
johnmeyer wrote on 3/9/2006, 9:03 PM
I like the flashing color bars. I can see how they might help.
craftech wrote on 3/10/2006, 5:15 AM
Corrolary: I've found that on my home television, that method doesn't work that well. The flesh tones look screwed up afterwards. I just decided to eye ball the flesh tones so that they look natural. I haven't looked into this that deeply.
==============
Using two different Color setup DVD's, the camera method, or anything else I have always found that I had to eyeball the flesh tones and tweak the settings using either a television OR a real monitor.
=============

"The S-Video on a small monitor isn't really necessary. You can't tell the difference."

[You should see the cross-color artifacts disappear (the false color on high frequency detail
On some monitors, the resolution will also go up (this depends on how bad the composite convertor/demodulator is). ]
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Glenn,
I am not sure we are both talking about the same thing here.

He asked about using a "television" (monitor). Not a REAL monitor.

In THAT context there is visually no real difference between the image via composite vs the image via S-Video on a small 8-13" television monitor. The differences become more significant as the screen size increases. This is strictly a practical recommendation because if he is looking for a small television to use as an external monitor for now and he is more likely to have "choices" if he doesn't insist that it be one with an S-Video connection.
I JUST RECENTLY bought a "real" monitor. A 15" JVC. I am happy I did, but up until then I was able to produce exceptionally good video using a 13 inch Sony television with a composite input and output. The video I produce now isn't any better, but with the "real" monitor it is simply Easier.

John
GlennChan wrote on 3/11/2006, 7:54 PM
From the (small + cheap) consumer TVs I've seen, S-video clearly looks better.

Resolution-wise, sometimes S-video is leaps and bounds sharper. Other times resolution looks the same between S-video and composite. This depends how bad the composite connection is I believe.

S-video doesn't show cross-color artifacts. Try putting a black and white image on a monitor with the composite connection hooked up. You'll see erroneous colors all around.
Or since you have a broadcast/(real) monitor, you should be able to hookup both composite and S-video. It'll show you the difference to look for.

Depending on your needs, you don't necessarily need S-video. Composite may be desireable so that you can monitor for it. Fences and certain fabrics can cause really annoying artifacts to appear.

2- The clearest example I've seen of how a consumer monitor can mess you up is when you use it on a shoot and judge exposure off it. Some consumer monitors are designed to be really, really bright and will make underexposed images look fine. If you're not aware of this, you can end up with underexposed footage. And to large portions of your TV audience, they'll see that the footage is underexposed.