OT: For wedding videographers

apit34356 wrote on 8/16/2007, 11:34 PM

Coursedesign,a nice find------ this website should help answer many of the common questions about fees and "packages" on this forum. I didn't know that you did or that you followed the video wedding market.

Coursedesign wrote on 8/17/2007, 1:26 AM

I don't.

I study and forever follow clear writing, and do a lot of copywriting with a focus on clarity.

I used to do wedding photography professionally a long time ago, but nowadays I only do that for family. Whatever wedding photographers/videographers are paid isn't enough.

Imho, even $6K is an astonishing bargain for a well covered wedding.

Grazie wrote on 8/17/2007, 1:28 AM

Excellent model of website design for THIS product! Clear & informative and without unnecessary dross.

Thanks for sharing

Grazie

alltheseworlds wrote on 8/17/2007, 1:36 AM

Except for using Quicktime (latest version too) for video previews. Ridiculous choice.

Paul Fierlinger wrote on 8/17/2007, 3:03 AM

Will someone please explain to me why small business websites (many; most!) never reveal their geographical locations? For instance, being a curious person I agree with the premises of this thread and like observing a sample of someone who goes about his business well, but I can't understand why this person keeps his whereabouts such a big secret...

Jonathan Neal wrote on 8/17/2007, 3:16 AM

Paul Fierlinger, from their website:

Although we are based in the Yosemite area, we have and continue to film weddings throughout Northern and Southern California, ranging from Santa Barbara Beaches to Napa Valley wineries. Upon special request we are available to travel out of the state.

DJPadre wrote on 8/17/2007, 3:57 AM

See www.patrickpikefilms.com/index.html for an example of a very clear professional web site.

((OK))

Note especially the Rates and Packages page.

((OK... ))

Options include High Definition Video, Online hosting of highlight video, Wedding video iPod, ...

((OK, isnt that what most of us are doing? Using HD as an added value option, as opposed to a standard? If not, Wedding videographers SHOULD. Most however dont even recognise the value of their own work, in turn charging less that what is deserved))

The packages are crystal clear about what the customer gets.

(( Kinda... but Ive been doing that for for the last 6 years... In fact, the package info the client recieved becomes Part 1 of the clients contract. In turn, they know PRECISELY what theyre gonna get before they sign anything

In regards to "wedding documentary", here in Aus, and i guess most of the rest of the world, what is the definiiton of wedding documentary?
Is it an actual BBC style Doco with the backstory, lead up and conclusion? like this
http://youtube.com/profile?user=somelikeitshotweddin

Or is it more of a Candidly shot Presentation... which is what "doco" style wedding shoots SHOULD be called, considering there is no actual documentary "per se" which emulates a BBCesque production.
Candid and Doco are two VERY different things and what really gets my goat is how the producers, irrespective of who they are, use a lack of information to sell their wares.

Take "long version" as an example.. what is a long version? Is it light edit of the raw footage? Is it the raw footage unedited? Or is it a fully edited feature length edited presentation??? ))

"I haven't seen it better than this anywhere."

www.studio-d.com.au

let me know what you think, i wouldnt mind some feedback actually as its been 2 years since ive updated it save for afew details and package evolutions .

I will be putting some watermarked video samples online within the next 4 weeks as weve recently taken 2 companies to court for copyright theft (literally copying and pasting text from our site to a point of leaving our name on their text on their actual websites.., while another used our web samples as their own)

Weve even had to take off our online photo albums as the designs were leached... down to the code... My web guy is taking care of that element of legalities though...
Yes we are paranoid, but weve got reason to be...
The online theatre will be using embeded flash video with watermarks over the work. The albums wil be locked and we're deliberately corrupting the code.

"Anything I've missed?"
how about the fundamentals of the service to the client? How about educating the client in the amount of work that is required? the responsibilities and nuances of how a production is pieced together based on the clients requirements? How about discussing equipment and lighting? How about having a website which answers almost any concern a client may have?

With my site, of the 45 to 55 odd weddings a i do a year maybe less than 5% will actually ask me anything specific, as this is al covered on the website itself

Aside from that, there are many things one can do to increase the value of wedding videgraphy, and IMO, it all comes down to the client understanding the nature of the work, and the true value of the product as an artistic archive of their day.

Unfortunately, the way video has been marketed, and the quality of work from our predecessors has led to a decline in opinion of the service itself. In turn forcing lower prices with more PP work. I remember charging 6k whe digital 8 was released about 10 yrs ago and we used "digital" as a huge selling point. It was still delivered on VHS though, but we sold the product in bucketloads based on the tools we had.

For ANY business to succeed, one must differentiate themselves to the rest of the pack.
It all starts with attitude

Paul Fierlinger wrote on 8/17/2007, 7:24 AM

Although we are based in the Yosemite area, we have and continue to film weddings throughout Northern and Southern California, ranging from Santa Barbara Beaches to Napa Valley wineries. Upon special request we are available to travel out of the state.

O.K., I didn't read every word, because I am not getting married at the moment, but is there a reason that people so often never display their business addresses on the "how to contact us" pages?

Spot|DSE wrote on 8/17/2007, 9:55 AM

<I>is there a reason that people so often never display their business addresses on the "how to contact us" pages? </I>
Many don't because they're not a walk-in business, may be in transit, or may be a bedroom office.

We don't, because there is no point in advertising where our very expensive equipment is stored, we're not a walk in business, we don't solicit clients, and other than a select few, there is no reason for any one to physically visit us. Besides, if you visit, it means we have to clean the place. We do have a mailing address, so if you wish to send us snail mail, you can find us. However, if you're finding a business on the web, chances are they have an email address, so snail mail is somewhat moot at that point.
I'm not sure why a physical address is important in the internet age?

BTW, DJ, your website is very nice. So is the link Course put up.

apit34356 wrote on 8/17/2007, 10:23 AM

DJPadre, your website is really nice. A lot of details, examples, your clients must be happy!

DJPadre wrote on 8/17/2007, 10:30 AM

thanx DSE

as for adress' im in total 100% agreement with DSE on the fact of expensive equipment and storage

Paul Fierlinger wrote on 8/17/2007, 11:09 AM

"We don't, because there is no point in advertising where our very expensive equipment is stored"
Thanks for the explanation; it truly never crossed my mind. I live where my equipment is and always have two or three dogs around and never lock the doors.

jrazz wrote on 8/17/2007, 11:30 AM

We put our address on our site. We have good security :)

j razz

apit34356 wrote on 8/17/2007, 12:15 PM

Jrazz, a great neighborhood sign!

Coursedesign wrote on 8/17/2007, 1:20 PM

DJ,

1. You have a classy web site, lots of things are good on it, and your photos inspire confidence.

But I was a bit taken aback on initial contact to see a bride's face covered with a huge About Us box, with a scroll bar. This seems like an insult to the bride.

Using a color photo (you have plenty) for the opening would be better. The black and white photo on that background creates distance in time and space, as opposed to pulling you in.

The table format used on the other site shows everything about the packages at a glance. On your website, the prospective client has to click each of the five package links and print them out to be able to compare them side-by-side, or more likely click back and forth until they get tired.

The other site is also more specific about the time allocated for shooting (up to 6,7,10,or 12 hours), and the time for editing (36,50,80, or 120 hours).

Specifying the time for editing especially adds a perception of value, in a way that is difficult to replicate with words.

2. I wonder how many of those guys on the neighborhood "posse" know what their odds are of getting shot by one of their own?

Do those guys know that pistol shots often go through walls and can kill somebody on the other side?

Do they know that ricochets can kill their own?

Are they truly prepared to kill another human being? It is amazingly common for armed people (often elderly) to be shot with their own guns after they hesitate. Anyone who is not ready to kill, is actually safer without a gun. They hold a gun like it was a security blanket, but it doesn't work that way.

If you really, truly have to put up an armed defense, then a pump shotgun is much preferable in most situations. Of course the barrel should be 18" (the minimum legal in the U.S.), not the enormous "fishing rod" type held by the guy on the left, that makes it hard to navigate indoors, and takes longer to swing around outdoors.

In addition to not risking killing somebody in the next room*, the pump has an additional advantage most "tough guys" don't think of. The sound of chambering a shotgun cartridge is known to nearly all people. It stops them immediately.

Far more so than the sound of cocking any pistol, even a .50 Desert Eagle.

If you don't have to kill an intruder, you don't have to spend hours filling out forms. How much is that worth to you?

You could be editing video instead! :O)

And you don't have to buy a new carpet...

(*A few years ago, a guy in Germany tried to commit suicide with a handgun. He missed his head and shot his neighbor through the wall, and is currently serving a long jail sentence for murder.)

jrazz wrote on 8/17/2007, 1:47 PM

I wonder how many of those guys on the neighborhood "posse" know what their odds are of getting shot by one of their own?

You missed the first part of the sign: "Drunks". That should answer your question as well as those that follow. :)

j razz

Coursedesign wrote on 8/17/2007, 2:48 PM

A lot of people get killed while hunting, by flask-goggled buddies who mistake them for game...

About web sites, even very small changes can double or quadruple sales.

This is quite common.

apit34356 wrote on 8/17/2007, 5:59 PM

coursedesign, jrazz posting was just visual humor, nothing more. More people are killed by drive-by shootings than hunting and friendly accidents by a huge margin. Drinking and hunting or handling any weapon is beyond "dumb". The saddest deaths are by children playing with loaded guns and most the times these kids could have been stop with basic safety procedures.

Still, the picture was funny, but then, I know a lot of hunters, etc...

DJPadre wrote on 8/17/2007, 7:11 PM

1. You have a classy web site, lots of things are good on it, and your photos inspire confidence.

((Thanks))

But I was a bit taken aback on initial contact to see a bride's face covered with a huge About Us box, with a scroll bar. This seems like an insult to the bride.

((Well the about us box can be closed and folded back over.. in turn revelaing the entire gallery.. all those thumbnails down the bottom can be clicked on to reveal a larger image of the original pic under where teh text goes.. i wanted to make that area smaller so as to not have to rescale the images, but it just didnt work with the design...))

Using a color photo (you have plenty) for the opening would be better. The black and white photo on that background creates distance in time and space, as opposed to pulling you in.

((never looked at it that way... i liked the candidness of the shot and the BW processing (for video) as it shows off the bat that the work itself is a lil different))

The table format used on the other site shows everything about the packages at a glance. On your website, the prospective client has to click each of the five package links and print them out to be able to compare them side-by-side, or more likely click back and forth until they get tired.

((I hear you.. thing is, the package info itself is provided to the client (with prices) once they contact us. They get a PDF booklet with all the info they need, and whichever package they choose becomes a part of their contract. You cant necesarily print these pages without losing vital information.
I thought about doing a chart similar to this, but each package is vastly different that it wouldnt make any sense Im afraid))

The other site is also more specific about the time allocated for shooting (up to 6,7,10,or 12 hours),
((SHooting times are irrelevant for weddings IMO, as by forcing hourly rates on package deals it forces the client to manage their day based on YOUR requirements. IMO it strains teh flow of the client. In turn, i based my shooting on specific locations, irrespective of how long we might be there, hence the lack of hourly coverage. In addition, but using locations instead of hours, we dont have to hang around for 12 hours if we dont need to. Here in Aus, hourly ratios arent looked upon too kindly for video.. ive tried doing hourly brackets, it just doesnt work here))

and the time for editing (36,50,80, or 120 hours).
((This i need to look into, however our edits dont have hourly brackets... As some of the cheaper packages we have are at some pretty exotic locations (considering the clients are also paying for our travel) so with that, i edit all my work in the same fashion, irrespective of their package. Also i take advantage of locations as much as i can and PP work on grading etc is prevalent throughout so even if its a smal package, i make sure i milk all teh footage for all its worth.
Problem with allocating time, is that with my own workload, if i was to use hourly rates, people woudl expect THEIR work delivered soon after that timeframe comes to pass. With video, the edit itself isnt waht takes time, its GETTING TO the edit. In turn, clients will never trully appreciate this fact as many people believe that theyre the only clients we service. They dont consider that within that same month, we may have filmed another 4 weddings.. they also dotn consider the time it takes or tehm to fulfil their conditional requirements of teh agreement. In turn, blaming the company for delays when all teh while we have been waiting for them to provide us with music etc
Therefore time in PP is realtive to amny factors and in all honesty, i dont think the Australian market understands the big picture.. its shame though))

Specifying the time for editing especially adds a perception of value, in a way that is difficult to replicate with words.
((Understood, however perception of value is relative to what value the clintis seeking on the outset.IR do they want a Candid (I dont cal them doco) style shoot? Or do they want acinematic presentation? What is it THEY want?
If you can show them elements of reality blended with the art of what we do, then perception will dawn on them regardless. If tehy like what they see, they will contact us. If they dont like what they see, they wont.
If however we can show how adaptive we are, then there is no issue as what we do is explained to them, how we do it is also explained to them, and from there, we adapt THOSE elements to what the client wants.
IMO thats a better indication of personal value
For stills, its an immediate hook
They either like your shots or they dont. CLients arent concerned with how a phtoog gets the shots, but they ARE concnerned with how a videographer gets the shots, becuase the negative stigma of video (especially here on aus) has already left a foul taste in many mouths.

Like i say, if we could market our products as an artistic archive of the day, only then can we value our products on par with photographers. As it stands, ALOT of education is required for this perception of value.
Yes the work is there, but to many, knowing how a videographer works is as important as the work itself.

Here in Aus, brides have a certain aire of expectation and they dont expect their video to be as polished as their photos, They also dont expect the videographer to have as much or more experience and skill with people and coordination of the day. Usually their surprised to experience first hand a videographer who HAS the expereince and people skills to manage any given situation.
They also dont expect video to be an artistic expression of their wedding... not in the cinematic sense anyway, but when they do see it, only THEN do they trully appreciate it, which brings me back to the point of packages and PP time and of couse price..
value of this sort of product is only trully ever accomplished once the work is delivered. The only time true value is seen is when teh clients have been educated about, and exposed to similar work to fiends and relatives who are close to them and the clients can relate to them, which in our case is what brings on the referals.
For random sales, its actually very tough to show the entire work as "an album" because the clietns jsut dont knwo what to expect.
Im not generic, im not cookie cutter, im not the cheapest and im defiantely not the fastest, but i make this clear on th outset, in turn showing the value in THIS sense i get comments from clients who would prefer to wait for somethign substantial and personal, with as much time taken in post as required for THEM and every other client.
THIS is what bends the client to change their outlook of the work on the outset

I could go on but really im so tired i need sleep..

thx for the feedback though, mich appreciated

Coursedesign wrote on 8/17/2007, 8:33 PM

...on initial contact to see a bride's face covered with a huge About Us box...
Well the about us box can be closed and folded back over.. in turn revelaing the entire gallery..

Now you're assuming that they will approach your site in a certain way.

Are you looking at your web statistics to see how they find you? Which search engines or referrers send them to you? Which search terms?

If they come from Google/Yahoo/etc. you can expect that the page they saw before yours was a search result page with many listings. They now have to decide which one they like the best.

Do you even know what text the search engines show for your site?

Do you know how many visitors you get each month? How many minutes they spend on your site? Do you know which pages they visit, which pages they come in by, and exit by?

Those are key pieces of information for online success.

When they get to your site, they have no connection or commitment to your company. Most times, they make an immediate decision based on a first impression, and within 3-5 seconds they have either decided to dive deeper into your site or decided to back out and look at the next company listed.

Seeing an About Us window with brown text on a gray-brown background, covering a black&white bride's face on a further very muted background, my first thought was that this must be a site for a funeral home.

Please don't feel insulted now, because that is not my intention. You see black&white photography as "a touch of class," and it is. But you're not selling photography, you are selling video, where most people are looking for the warmth and romantic atmosphere they expect, even in exaggerated form as an emotional interpretation of the wedding.

You'll get better results if you feed their expectations immediately, i.e. "selling to the stomach" to get them to stay on your site, before you start selling to their brains for justification why they should go with you for an expensive and critical job.

You say you can always explain the packages later when they call. Well, do you know how many people come to your site, but don't bother to call?

You say you feel like a pioneer in bringing serious quality to wedding videography. That's an enviable situation, because it gives you a great story to tell.

In fact, you could make a video about it (to be put on your site), comparing what people typically get with what you offer.

Then you could write (or have somebody ghost write) an article for wedding magazines about what to look for in MODERN quality wedding videography, with an urge to make sure that their supplier really offers this.

Then you can write about how much more important it is to get quality for the documentation and story, the ultimate memory of this "once-in-a-lifetime event."

You can write a story about all the work that goes into a high class wedding video, from the shooting to all the exciting post work by skilled artisans over a period of six months.

It won't take much of this for you to build up name recognition. "Oh, Studio D, those are the Quality wedding people, I've read about them in Bridezilla magazine."

Name recognition allows you to charge much higher rates for the very same work. Double. Triple. Even Quadrupled fees can be OK if you connect with the people who have money, and those people always exist.

#1 is to tell a story about what you offer.

People will read 10 pages if you make it interesting, and over those 10 pages they sell themselves before they pick up the phone to talk to you.

DJPadre wrote on 8/18/2007, 9:56 PM

im not insulted at all..

as for stats, i do have an idea as to what comes through the site and from where..

as for a funeral home, honestly dont think a smiling bride in BW is depressing as a funeral, so .....

as for the rest of the contents, i agree the page shouldnt roll out over the image gallery however the script is already written, but i'll be looking into keeping the text pages closed until a client decides to click on a link at the top

as for selling to the stomach, i agree.. which is why i'll be putting a random script with 3 or 4 different clips..so before they even go into any nitty gritty, they see some of our key shots in action. Hopefully this will prompt a "wow" and keep them hanging for more.
Im still looking into this

as for packages, i dont explain anything further except for the price itself.
As our markets change almost monthly, so do prices, I also dont like the idea of putting prices online as I may have a potential client who visits the site 6 months ago, then to come back closer to the wedding and notice a price increase then expects a cheaper rate.
I also dont like my competitors knowing how much i make.. its a simple equation on business tactics

"You say you feel like a pioneer in bringing serious quality to wedding videography. That's an enviable situation, because it gives you a great story to tell."

I dont know where this is implied, Yes we are at the forefront of what we do considering i have access to almost any piece of equipment or software to make any job workable.. so if thats pionering, then so be it.. however its not implied as an egotystical horn blow.

The amount of training i have offered to other "pro" videographers is actually rather staggering considering theyre supposed to be my competitors, but the advantage i have now is the fact that i know where they stand..

Here in aus, its competitive enough without having to deal with competition who are unskilled and lack expereince.
All im trying to do is portray the fact that I am skilled and i do have the experience with my basic methods outlined to the clients on the outset.. Theres more information than sales blurbs..

A pioneer? I dont know.. the clients can use thier own judgement on that, but i never stated that I was..

"In fact, you could make a video about it (to be put on your site), comparing what people typically get with what you offer."

most people who view the site are potential brides who check out our site from work. most dont have audio or video facilities to accomodate video needs/codecs (which is why ill be using flashs soon enough).

Also, the way the site is designed, was more for my requirements, being to answer any questions anyone might have with regard to the service. It wasnt intended to be a showcase hub.
Although i am rethining my position on that..

"Then you could write (or have somebody ghost write) an article for wedding magazines about what to look for in MODERN quality wedding videography, with an urge to make sure that their supplier really offers this."

What others do is really not my concern, HOW they approach what they do and sell said product is my concern, especially when potenaitl clients are mislead or affected due to misleading info leading onto final judgement and decision making.

My status on several bridal forums has helped peoples understandings of video and its value and i have raised many elements which many wouldnt have even considered.
Still, the negative stigma taints the industry to a point of distraction, making it harder to sell quality work and high end prices.
Here in aus, unlike the US, to charge 6k for a wedding video, the client expects at least 3 operators with cranes, jibs, XDCam HD, HD delivery, steaducams, 35mm adapters and to use said resources discretely. Thats not possible..
The lack of understanding and exposure to this kind of thing really makes it diiciult so im working on a video with a freindly competitor so as we can make a "behind the scenes" video showing the work thats invovled...
were still working on how were going to execute that..

"Then you can write about how much more important it is to get quality for the documentation and story, the ultimate memory of this "once-in-a-lifetime event." "

Well, thing is, like i said in the previous post, people dont appreciate the value of video until after the fact.
No matter how we try to sell it here (in aus) it will never be seen as equal to photography, irrespecitve of skill or expereince or the final product itself.
Ive done weddings with photogs who charge over 6k a pop and they seriously have no idea.. moreso a lack of experience than anythign else, but people hire them becuase they believe high cost = good product.
Thing with video is that we cant sell our wares like this becuase the clients have already devalued what we do before they even look at the packages..

And when they see a price on par with a high end photog, do you really think theyre going to go for it? Unles they have that "disposable" income ... reason i mention disposable, is because disposable is how wedding video services are seen.. its an afterthough.. always has been for over 80% of bookings we take on.. and no mater how hard we try to bring it to the fore.. it jsut wont happen..

"You can write a story about all the work that goes into a high class wedding video, from the shooting to all the exciting post work by skilled artisans over a period of six months."

Ill be adding a blog to the site with our video gallery soon enough..

"It won't take much of this for you to build up name recognition. "Oh, Studio D, those are the Quality wedding people, I've read about them in Bridezilla magazine."

((why would i want my site ot be on bridezilla magazine? LOL hope your joking there dude.. lol ))

Name recognition allows you to charge much higher rates for the very same work. Double. Triple. Even Quadrupled fees can be OK if you connect with the people who have money, and those people always exist.
((YES THEY exist, the issue is whether or not our marketing is actually targeting those with teh budget. Considering 80% of weddings only have a pro photog, and of that 80% only 10-12% will have a pro video, our market here is very small. Coupled with photogs marketing tactics of suplying dvd slideshows for $500, peoples incentive to invest in video is VERY low. Especialy when photog budgets go over over the clients specified budget range, so the client in turn makes a sacrifice and the first thing to go is the wedding video to accomodate "better" photography.. Its jsut the mentality of the Australian market im afraid..

"#1 is to tell a story about what you offer."

I thought htis was clear on the outset with specific detailsa botu the service and what clients should be expecting from us
However now that i have had a chance to og over your thoughts, i think i understand where you going with this...

"People will read 10 pages if you make it interesting, and over those 10 pages they sell themselves before they pick up the phone to talk to you."

Funny you shoudl mention that.. abotu 30% of bookings come from clients who haent seen our work and from those who who havent ven contacted us.
Ive had clients go over the site and immediately wrte to confirm availability and book us on the spot. This is without even seeing our video work. For me, the site has worked really well, the layout is understandable and expandable as much as the client needs. If tehy want more info, its there if they click on the panel.
The gallery is easy to use with thumbnails and a scrollbar which moves along

The colour scheme works as does the marketing vs info text. To a point that when we launched the site 5 years ago, it was and still is one of the most informative wedding websites online.
Our competitors have copied our work and our txt (to a point of leaving our business name in their blurbs, as their oversight on copying and pasting went so far as to literally leave the text as is.. )

I appreciate your comments course, and i can see how a different market demographic would consider my site.
the site itself was originally designed to be an info hub, as here in aus, the negative stigma of video is so intense, that videographers have always needed to justify their prices and their products to make them valuable to the client
Its not enough to have the ability to provide good work, as these days, brides expect ALOT more for their money.
They believe that with technology evolving, that our work should in fact be easier, on the contraire, it isnt as HD and DVD authoring has bought new elements to the fore. And once these elements become standard (such as DVD) the product itself (encoding and authoring) will be expected.
in time, people will be expecting HD delivery, in addition to SD delivery, BUT with cost of technology, they wont understand or appreciate the time to conform these 2 formats for each respective delivery option.
In turn, they wont want to pay the extra $$ required to cover these labour and resource costs as they would expect it to be "standard"
With this, it will then force the newbies and lowballers to retian SD prices or evn decrease prices simply to score the gig in the first place.
In tunr, setting a precedent, but like DV did, which will inevitably drop prices and inherantly bring the status of video even lower than what it is..

As opposed to using HD as a value addon, HD will be used to market a service by producers who are happy to operate at a loss simply to have the folio. They do not realise that by undercutting and lowballing their prices, their setting themselves up for failure in the future as THEIR initial price setting is what set the low price precedent in teh first place
The cliient, irrespective of level of service or experience offered by others, will follow the $$ so they WILL sacrifice quality and experience to save $500 bux.

Thats just the way the cookie crumbles...