OT: Glass

farss wrote on 11/25/2004, 1:35 PM
I've read and learnt way more than I need to about every aspect of pretty well every prosummer camera there is. Yet oddly enough the glass on the front seems to get very little attention. Now until my last shoot I guess I hadn't though that much about it either, well OK I had but as I thought it'd never had a noticable impact on my work it was all theoretical.
So there I was shooting a two way discussion in low light from the back of the room, many undesirable things to cope with but the most noticable thing is how poor the images look when I'm in tight.
I was shooting with the venerable PD150 which does have good low light performance however it's quite noticable how soft the image is when the iris is wide open and the lens is at maximum focal length.
The wide shots look great, this makes sense, the lens is pulling in more light. But the thing that really struck me last night thinking it over is this is the type of video many of us have to shoot, the kind that pays money. Not many get paid to take pretty shots on bright sunny days, you don't find many CEOs delivering the state of the nation on a beach or in the mountains! It's almost always long shots with less than optimium light.
Now that means two things, the lens is working hard, any lens out wide should perform well, at minimum iris it'll look even better. But also the DOF is very shallow and the autofocus rarely hits the mark so you're back to manual except the viewfinders aren't really up to the task either. Sure you could use an external monitor but you oftenly don't have the space for that.
Now I know only too well, you get what you pays for and everyone is gushing over Sony giving us ever so many more pixels in the new HDV kit but how come no ones asking for better glass on their cameras? Ah, I think I know the answer to that one. How many consummers go into a camera shop and try long shots in low light? About none, they take the camera outside and think Oh boy such pretty pictures. In other words really good glass costs a lot of money and doesn't sell cameras!
So, OK, to get better results I can forget any of the consummer cameras, lets say I start thinking DSR 570 and a lens, how much better are the say $5 lenses compared to the $20K lenses? Having done some still work over the years with 35mm still camera lenses the extra bucks buys you a lot more light sucking ability, I don't notice quite the same thing with video lenses or have I missed something?

Bob.

Comments

Liam_Vegas wrote on 11/25/2004, 1:40 PM
I have a PD170 - and while I have not noticed any problem with the standard lens - when you add on the included wide-angle DO NOT use the zoom. The image gets VERY soft if you zoom all the way in.

I guess it struck me that the reason I put on the wide angle was to use it in that mode... it just never ocurred to me that it would cause me a problem.

This sounds like a related issue to what you are seeing
mark2929 wrote on 11/25/2004, 1:57 PM
I was wondering with a cheaper lens that is not so good quality.. Perhaps Images are Slightly Distorted at different distances... I have noticed that TV Pictures seem Kinder to people.... I wondered if glass also plays a part in this OR is it more to do with the Chips /Adjustments ect
farss wrote on 11/25/2004, 2:04 PM
Good cameras have a "Skin Detail" adjustment, that can be very kind to faces.
Bob.
mark2929 wrote on 11/25/2004, 2:12 PM
I think "Skin Detail" should really be given a lot more emphasis this Function "Lets face it" Ooops....;0) Anyone making a video Weddings/ Familys ect Would get a lot more Business from Making their Clients look Good !
nickle wrote on 11/25/2004, 3:28 PM
This reminded me of 35mm still photography.

My Konica allowed a choice of shutter speed versus aperture.
If you wanted depth of field (high fstop) you slowed the shutter speed.

In other words you could adjust the shutter speed and the needle would show the fstop that it was going to use.

So you chose between shutter speed for moving objects, fstop for depth of field or the amount of light available.

Naturally lowest light situations meant a wide open lens and a slow shutter. The worst of situations but at least you could get a shot.

Then there was highspeed film with the coveted graininess everyone seems to want.

My DV camera has a slow shutter setting, but it just makes the video jerky..
vicmilt wrote on 11/25/2004, 4:35 PM
Hoo boy - not a simple situation to answer, especially when you compare the DSR 570 with a 2/3" chip with the PD 170 with a 1/2" chip... they ain't the same and they NEED different glass characteristics...

First - better glass costs more money and great glass is super expensive.

For instance, in 35mm movie production the top of the line are Cooke lenses.
The Cooke zooms run well over $100,000 - we're just talking lenses here not including the cameras. What do you get? Greater clarity of image, color correction, freedom from aberration (I know that ain't spelled right, but I'm a cinematographer, not a teacher... sorry) and a wider f stop, allowing increasingly lower light requirements.

OK - so we can forget shooting like Sven Nyquest... but not really. Because even Sven would not "settle" for inferior camera placement, and here's where I can be of some value to you. You've got to be stronger in (gently) demanding closer placement to your subject... I do.
If you want good color, clarity and sharpness, the first thing to do, is get closer. That PD 170 is a killer camera - I use one and love it. But good photography demands proximity. Even with the best lenses, a long shot from the back of the auditorium will look pretty bad.
Things are infinitely better for current technology with a decent 3 chip camera, than they were a couple of years ago with ANY film set-up. But it's not the lenses that are making your footage weak. You need more light (not always in your control), and you need to get closer to the subject.

If I'm shooting a CEO, I LIGHT him. If he's on a stage, I sit in the third row. End of story. If I have NO alternative, I try to get a "quickee" interview, rehashing the information given and use that liberally with the nasty low-light stage stuff. Making movies (videos) is more than setting up a camera and turningi it on. Things aren't always the way you wish they'd be. You've got to "make" your situations and then "make your video". I'll never leave without getting the "information" in the can, even if I have to run around the back of the stage and literally BEG for an interview.

RE: your 570 vs the 170 - the bigger chip requires a longer lens to cover the CCD. Longer lenses are WAY more expensive to achive a similar f stop, so you WILL need more expensive lenses with the 570 than you NEED with the 170. Yes - the combination of the better glass PLUS the bigger chip, will definitely give you a better image. BUT:
1- not if you're still shooting from the back of the hall
2 - not if the lighting sucks and
3 - not necessarily SO much better that you'll see it on your average TV set., anyway.
What will make a dramatic change in your footage is your attitude about what you are shooting and your insistance (to yourself) to get the coverage that will make you and your subject look good.
Now hi-def is going to be a much more demanding medium because a LOT of problems are hidden in the current DV media that won't be so easily masked. But right now all delivery is still NTSC (never the same color), and mushy and a lot of other things that are accepted by virtually all clients. There is a giant step up in cost, equipment and manpower to achive the "Next" level of production. And even the biggest corporate clients are not spending the 5 figures necessary to get that quailty. Everyone is using the same gear right now. There is no "super" lens in corporate work that will make a difference in how your stuff looks.
Learn to use the equipment at hand to make great photography.
I hope I haven't offended and that I've encouraged you to modify your production thinking. Try not to "settle" for less, and when you Have To (and we all do, believe me) - then get coverage.
Best,
v
mark2929 wrote on 11/25/2004, 9:15 PM
I Possbly will never get to play with the Different Cameras... So if I was to make an investment in an Upmarket Camera... I would need to Justify the cost..I often wondered why the Cameras with better lenses/ Chips ect seem to be directed at Pros and Overpriced ...I now realise its what a Professional can do with the Camera... I would love to spend time Shooting with a Pro and learning... The stuff you learn from experience... Thanks Vic that is terrific advice...
farss wrote on 11/25/2004, 10:48 PM
Vicmilt,
your advice is absolutely right on the money and believe me if I could have I would have! The location must have been designed by some patron saint of those who hate video. A mixture of lighting, daylight through a window behind the subjects, audience very close to subject, big space between subjects and main road outside windows with two bus stops. Almost no control over the venue as we were only there as a favour to my client. The owners of the premises were being very co operative but I'm very concsious of not wearing out my welcome.
The dumbest thing I did was I could have shot this on a 570 but the client said they didn't need 16:9 so I didn't worry about it seeing as how it was more weight to lug up narrow stairs. What I didn't think about was the better glass, my fault, we all learn.
Worse than that, the client had originally talked about shooting this in one of their own studios but decided that was too hard, funny how making things 'simpler' usually makes them harder when it comes to video.