OT Help: 5.1 audio monitors+amp <$500?

RichMacDonald wrote on 1/3/2004, 9:54 PM
First things first, it looks like the NASA Mars lander has landed successfully. Way to go!!

Now, I've been researching 5.1 monitors for the last couple of weeks. My budget is $500. Its been very frustrating: Online reviews help, but I have to hear something before I buy. I've heard and rejected *every* computer 5.1 system out there. Anything the chains carry, I've probably heard and disliked. I think all the Logitechs stink (distant mids, no presence), I dislike the Klipsch Promedia (overly bright coloring and the same distant mids, causing poor sound location). In fairness, this is often due to morons at the chain stores who don't know how important it is to setup a sound system, but in truth, these systems all suck to my ears. (I was a part-time sound engineer as a teenager, so I'm not a neophyte)

Also, I heard the 2.1 Bose system alongside the others. Once you hear how good the Bose sound (little coloring, *great* sound location and "space") its all over for the competition. Unfortunately, Bose doesn't make a 5.1 for less than $1000. Perhaps they'll come out with something specifically for 5.1 computers this year? If they did, I'd buy one, damn the torpedoes and bring on the PBJ sandwiches for the next 6 months.

So I've shifted to the hi-end audio stores. *Every one* in Kansas City! Sheesh. When they hear you only have $500 to spend, they practically turn up their noses at you. I had one salesguy literally say "no, we have nothing here that fits the bill" then turn and WALK OUT OF THE ROOM. And I was even wearing clean clothing.

Anyway, here are the highlights of what I've researched:

The yamaha yht 340 can be had for $340 online shipped. Includes speakers and amplifier. Very nice sound, good subwoofer, a major step up from any of the computer-specific brands. I'd be happy with this system.

The infinity inftss456 is an excellent 5.1 speaker system. I can get it at a local store for $360. I'd also have to buy an amplifier separately, perhaps $150-$200. Next step up from the yht340.

Believe it or not, that is the sum total of systems I have heard that meet the bill: Good 5.1 sound and around $500.

(Quick OT story about the yht500: I heard it at a local store. Anyone in the US catch the ESPN story a couple years ago when a local store advertisedthat if the Kansas City Chiefs shut out their rivals that Sunday, then all purchases that previous week would be free..and it happened..and cost them millions..well that store. Anyway, the middle-aged should-know-better salesguy helps me listen to the system. He's a bit slow, has little to say. I drop the fact that the online stores have it for about $50 cheaper, but I'd prefer to buy locally, he doesn't say anything, I hem and hah a bit, then say "ok, I'll take it". We go to ring it up, he discovers he is out of stock, the other stores are out of stock, but I can have the store demo unit. I say that I don't really want that as I prefer to burn in the speakers under my own control. I wait. He says he can order them in..it'll take 2 weeks. I say that's too long. I ask him what kind of deal he can make for me on the demo unit. He checks his computer, mumbles something about it already being $20 under their normal sales price, then tells me he can't reduce the price. I ask if he's kidding me. He says no. I bite my tongue and politely say goodbye. Criminey, do these chumps *want* to go out of business? Do they actually think there is a sufficient supply of suckers out there for them to keep going? Apparently.)

Now, the problem with the online yht340 is that it'll get delivered by truck and could take 2 weeks; 1 week if I up the shipping by $30. So I'm not biting yet. Tonight I read a review on the Onkyo HT-S660 at http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_10_4/onkyo-s660/HTIB_onkyo_s660.html. Its a *great* review, but truthfully without enought meat on the review bones to be sure. Nevertheless, something about the review made me trust it. I like Onkyo in general, and I'd probably not be going wrong. Its definitely more power than the yht340. Better yet, my good friends at B&H have it for $400 and free 3-day shipping.

So now I'm sitting on my B&H shopping cart ready to push the final button. But I've never bought speakers sight-unheard. OTOH, B&H has a good return policy, i.e., shipping cost only.

I've basically exhausted all my research locally and online, and spent far too many hours agonizing. Am I getting the best deal I can? I've come close to saying the hell with it and buying a cheap $70 set for the time being. (I'm *really* under budget pressure right now.)

Is there anyone who has been or is in the same boat as me? What on earth is the best 5.1 system to be had for under $500. Or is it really just a black hole in the current product lines?

(Going to be running this from an Audigy 2 platinum, btw. And I'd be running Mackie HR624's if I could afford them :-)

(And I'm not even going to mention the online chumps who're now a week late delivering my RAM. Can't run the new computer without RAM. Ok, it was www.axiontech.com:-)

Sorry for the lengthy venting. But this is really stressful and it should have been fun.

Comments

MyST wrote on 1/3/2004, 10:01 PM
For a LITTLE more than $500 you could look at the M-Audio LX 4 kit (LX4 2.1 plus the LX4 5.1 expander kit).

http://www.m-audio.com/index.php?do=products.main&ID=b57869499ad3dcf48bf242aaa58dca2b

I haven't heard them, but I bet they're much better than consumer speakers.

M
RichMacDonald wrote on 1/4/2004, 12:07 AM
Hey, that's a good idea. I had never heard of these speakers. Very low power, but very efficient. I found a review at http://www.audiomidi.com/aboutus/reviews/haynes_LX4.cfm. Also, msrp is $550, but I saw street at $440. I'll think about this. Thanks.
PAW wrote on 1/4/2004, 5:14 AM
Hello Rich,

I am using the LX 5.1 package with an M-Audio 1010LT and I am very happy with it.

I needed a compact 5.1 monitoring system for my home studio and the LX's are pretty compact compared to anything else I could find.

The only downside is mentioned in the review if you power up/down your system without turning off the speakers it tends to make you jump a bit :-)

Regards, Chester
TheHappyFriar wrote on 1/4/2004, 6:26 AM
I used an onboard 6 channel (6 indepandent channel and digital out) sound card with the RCA RT2280 reciever, and it works good. I normaly use the 6 channel output from the sound card (not digital) and the 6 channel in on reciever. It cost be about $350 2 years ago. Has 6 channel in, coax & optical digital in, and several stereo AV in/out's with SVIDEO. The speakers that came with it don't support really low bass (below 100hz) but I could always replace the bas speaker if I want. It does everything between that and 20,000hz.

From the sound of it though, ou don't want a ssytem like that (i never has any complaints about it though).
farss wrote on 1/4/2004, 1:37 PM
I cannot help much as I'm on bottom of the planet so don't have access to the same kit as in the US. But here's what I'd be doing.

The most important bit surely is what comes out the FL and FR speakers right. I'd be getting some decent studio grade powered speakers for that and add something a bit cheaper for the rear and centre channels. My thinking on this maybe way off the mark but I figure you'll still be mostly working with stereo mixes not 5.1. Even if mixing for 5.1 the majority of people are still going to be listenng to a 2.1 mixdown and even is not most of your sound will still be coming out of the front channels.

Take what's done in cinemas, the big oomph is in the FR and FL speakers, and maybe the centre and LFE, the rest are just wall hung cheapo (comparatively) units.

You might need to spend a little time balancing the whole rig up that'll be the only downside.
craftech wrote on 1/4/2004, 2:39 PM
Rich,
Get yourself a good Home Theatre System if you don't already have one and hook your computer up to that. It's money better spent.
I thought the Audigy had digital audio output, but if it doesn't.......................
If you have a PCI slot available you could get a hardware decoder card such as the Sigma Designs Hollywood DVD Decoder Card (cost me $40 at a computer shhow). It plays DVDs flawlessly without any of the problems of the software decoders and it has digital coaxial out and S-Video out. The length of a coaxial cable and an S-Video cable are not critical and you can get them cheaply as long as 40 feet from www.partsexpress.com

John
filmy wrote on 1/4/2004, 6:06 PM
RE: M-Audio

I have to say/ask - all M-Audio site does is run on and endless loop for me, with nothing ever loading. My guess is it has something to do with this line of code: "<meta HTTP-EQUIV="refresh" content="3;URL=setnoflash.php">" It is just telling the browser to refresh every 3 seconds. I did find out that it is also looking for for something hat isn't there - "The requested URL /layout/swf/setnoflash.php&contentVersion=6&contentMajorRevision=0&contentMinorRevision=0&allowFlashAutoInstall=false was not found on this server."

Not that anyone else has this problem, but if you do that could be why.

PS: LOL! - so I did a search and it seems that M-Audio also has www.m-audio.net, www.midiman.net and www.midiman.de The only one that does not endlessly loop is the german site - www.midiman.de. LOL!! So if all else fails and you want to read german try out http://www.midiman.de/lx4.htm.
busterkeaton wrote on 1/4/2004, 9:21 PM
Craftech,

Would a home theater system really do the same thing as audio monitors? One is designed to sound good and one is designed to sound accurate.
RichMacDonald wrote on 1/4/2004, 9:57 PM
>Would a home theater system really do the same thing as audio monitors? One is designed to sound good and one is designed to sound accurate.

Not only that, which is designed to sound good/accurate when 3 feet from your ear?

Quick update: I got to hear the Onkyo HT-S660 today. Speakers are a bit cumbersome for a computer desk environment, but they do sound very good. A better midrange than others in the price range. Unfortunately, that better midrange also highlights some muddiness and lack of positioning.

FWIW, we have a "Nebraska Furniture Mart" in Kansas City. One of those super, mega stores. Their website doesn't list the wares, but the Onkyo can be had for $350. The best price online is $400. Score one for the home team. (OTOH, sadly, another snotty audio salesperson who was less than impressed when he heard I only had $500 to spend. But I must learn not to respond to a "well have you tried brand X" with a "No, I think they stink." And not to fall prey to yet another Bose flame/argument :-)
craftech wrote on 1/5/2004, 10:23 AM
Check the Onkyo website for refurbished Onkyo products directly through them. The prices are great and they come with a full warranty. Some of their excellent receivers are a fantastic buy.
Also very reputable dealers with great prices and return policy (especially if you price match) are www.vanns.com and www.abtelectronics.com

John
Spot|DSE wrote on 1/5/2004, 10:26 AM
You're not gonna find much of quality for 500.00 and down, but M-Audio has filled a niche quite nicely...the LX4 2.1 with the expander pack is very, very cool. The problem is getting the audio from your card to their speaks, as their system requires 6 discrete inputs. Your card doesn't provide those sorts of outputs.
RichMacDonald wrote on 1/5/2004, 11:20 AM
>You're not gonna find much of quality for 500.00 and down...

Don't I know it. Blessing and curse to have good ears. I have the same problem with wine :-)

>... but M-Audio has filled a niche quite nicely...the LX4 2.1 with the expander pack is very, very cool.

I'm definitely leaning this way. I'd love to hear them first, but I don't see that happening. Still, good places that have good return policies.

>The problem is getting the audio from your card to their speaks, as their system requires 6 discrete inputs. Your card doesn't provide those sorts of outputs.

?? The M-audio has six 1/4" balanced TRS inputs. That's line-level, right? The audigy has three 1/4" "stereo" line-level outs. Its not hard to split a two-line 1/4" plug into two single-line 1/4" plugs. What am I missing? (Don't think I'm going to like the answer.)
Spot|DSE wrote on 1/5/2004, 11:39 AM
It may well be that your card sends a mono signal to a conductor that can be split out to dual monos....if it's got 3 outs, that equates to the correct 6 inputs...I'd run to Radio Shack, get a single splitter for 4-5$, and try it on just one speak at a time, see if it's the correct info. If so, you're in heaven and ready to go.
The M-Audio's sound great. We've toured with them, they are wonderful for a small room. Anything bigger than about 14 x14, it's a little small.
craftech wrote on 1/5/2004, 11:50 AM
ONKYO HTS660B
$399 is the going price everywhere


http://www.6ave.com/product.jsp?x=HTS660B&zipz=11001
Price $399 + $.06 ground shipping

http://www.resellerratings.com/seller2853.html


You may want to check Here for user reviews of Home Theater systems:
http://www.audioreview.com/defaultcrx.aspx

Also Onkyo uses the same receiver with many complete systems. The number after the "S" indicates the number of speakers included. You may find a better deal on 5 speaker or 7 speaker system.

ClubOnkyo was what I was mentioning before. Free to join and they often have some great deals on refurbished and web specials:

http://www.clubonkyo.com/

Currently HT-S660 is $350

John

RichMacDonald wrote on 1/5/2004, 1:05 PM
>ONKYO HTS660B
>$399 is the going price everywhere

Interestingly, its $350 brand-new at my local "Nebraska Furniture Mart". I heard it yesterday. Definitely a fuller midrange than the comparable yamaha's, sony's and infinity's -- it has a bigger satellite speaker -- however, when listening to an audiophile jazz CD, I detected some muddiness in the midrange; it was hard to position the musicians *exactly* in space. *Very* picky listening on my part, and in fact I doubt the competition would even provide me as much information in order to make the same criticism. After listening to the Onkyo, I went back to the other systems (30 min drive, so some memory loss), and they didn't sound as good. In fact, if you turn off the subwoofer, the satellites of the other systems have a very serious lack of low-mid range.

I'll go on record here: The Onkyo HTS660 is the best home theater system for under $500. *Mainstream* system you're likely to listen to at your local stores, of course, since I can't have heard everything.

I never was able to listen to everything in the same room with the same source, but I'd guessti-rate the yamaha yht340 next, then the infinity inftss450char speakers. Side-to-side with the Onkyo, the sony was tinny junk.

Incidentally, the "B" in the Onkyo is Black. They also have a silver.

Thanks everyone for your time and suggestions! I hope my review notes help others get a head start on their search. I think I'm going to go with the M-Audio LX4s. The best price is $440, but www.musiciansfriend.com has them for $455 shipped, plus a no-cost return policy and optional $15/month no interest payments.
craftech wrote on 1/5/2004, 1:32 PM
Rich,

It's very difficult to evaluate audio equipment in a store. Been that way ever since I can remember. Do you have a family home theater system?

If not, why not put the money towards that and hook up to it. That's what I do and it sounds great. Don't forget, that's what a lot of your customers will be playing your DVDs on so why not test them on the same and get the enjoyment out of the system at the same time.
I do not however use it for listening to music via phono, tape, or Cd. I have an older system (better quality back then)which I repair when necessary. I have listened to many home theater systems and find that they do not generally lend themselves very well to music listening if you are at all critical which it sounds like you are.
Of course it also depends upon WHAT you are listening to.

For HT I have my system tweaked to give the full effect. You know.......where you grab your $**#* when the Tyranosaurus Rex chomps on the sofa. But it doesn't sound good when playing the Vienna Philharmonic.
My older Fisher Receiver and walnut Wharfedale speakers sound good for that.

John
Spot|DSE wrote on 1/5/2004, 2:18 PM
Keep in mind that Hollywood DVD's are precompressed, and have little bearing on what you hear in real life from the speaks when authoring. If you KNOW the media well, it helps you determine sound, but that's the main issue, is if you KNOW the recorded media. Otherwise, just take a CD that you are familiar with and judge the speaks by that.
As said before, for the low price, I've yet to hear anything as good as the LX's. We tried KRK, Yamaha, JBL, and a couple other small systems before settling on these for a training system. No, they're not a Mackie 624 system. But they are also not 5K for a whole setup. AND, they sound tremendous, with max control.
RichMacDonald wrote on 1/5/2004, 2:59 PM
>Do you have a family home theater system?

Nope, and I don't know what I'm going to do when I finally get one. I suspect the wife will win out and force an out-of-sight 5.1 solution. Like the $3K Bose I installed for my designer-home-modeling sister :-(! Currently, I have a conventional music stereo system with two Bose 301s and two "we-have-some-leftover-from-a-big-job" speakers that are *great*..seriously, I knew it was a total scam but it was a great price, the kids on the truck came over to my house while I checked them out, and they are *great* :-) Even 15-20 yrs later.

>If not, why not put the money towards that and hook up to it. That's what I do and it sounds great.

My computer isn't in the same room as the stereo.

>Don't forget, that's what a lot of your customers will be playing your DVDs on so why not test them on the same and get the enjoyment out of the system at the same time.

I plan to "test" on my other new home stereo 5.1 system and my new $6K TV as well. Its just that this won't happen until the family finances get a major boost :-) So for now I'm going to be stuck viewing in my little editing world and my sister's house.

>I do not however use it for listening to music via phono, tape, or Cd. I have an older system (better quality back then)which I repair when necessary. I have listened to many home theater systems and find that they do not generally lend themselves very well to music listening if you are at all critical which it sounds like you are.
Of course it also depends upon WHAT you are listening to.

I hear you. Over Xmas I took my DVDs to a friend's house and his new very-expensive system. Time-lapse sunsets with simple 2-channel music. It sounded like cr*p. The "surround" receiver effects are *way* too extreme, and the "stereo" mode ignores the center channel, so all the sound disappeared into the ceiling. That's part of my motivation: I figure I can take some stereo music and remix it for 5.1, thus taking the stupid receiver out of the loop. Or sometimes I'll just be adding stereo music as background to a video camera stereo mike: With 5.1, I can get better separation.
craftech wrote on 1/5/2004, 3:23 PM
an out-of-sight 5.1 solution. Like the $3K Bose I installed for my .......
=========================================================

You really don't have to spend anything close to that amount of money.
1. Receiver: Onkyo TXSR601(built like the older receivers) around $450

2. Athena Technologies AS-F2 for main speakers (around $600/pair at Best Buy)

3. Athena Technologoes AS-B2 rear speakers (around $250/pair at Best Buy)

4. Athena Technologies AS-C1 center channel (around $180 at Best Buy)

5. AudioSource SW Fifteen 15" subwoofer (with an easy modification to make the lows clean and sharp) is around $150-$175

Of course you can shop around, but the above system except for the subwoofer can be auditioned at BestBuy. I have the center channel and rears combined with main speakers which I built myself and the same subwoofer I mentioned. The system is guaranteed to flatline you with the right movie.

John

Spot|DSE wrote on 1/5/2004, 5:08 PM
I'd do one even cheaper.... :-) (This is my home system, not the studio)

5 Radio Shack split 4" speaks on wall mounts. These look like the Bose, because they are built by Bose for Radio Shack. 59.99 a pair, you can also buy just one for 29.99. I bought 3 pair in case one goes.

1 Advent 15" sub, powered with a 500 watt internal amp. 259.00 at Best Buy.

Sony DE985 Receiver/amp-299.00 at Best Buy. 200 watts each for front/rears/center. The amp is also set up for 7.1, but I'm not there yet.

In my 30x18 family room, with a 10' projection screen, these sound incredible. I brought home my Mackie system, and because the room is so long and spread out, they didn't work as well as the smaller speakers due to location points. Plus, they were huge in the room.
Even though my system is inexpensive, it's loud and clean.
For giggles, I also have a Buttkicker mounted to my couch, too.
craftech wrote on 1/5/2004, 8:09 PM
For giggles, I also have a Buttkicker mounted to my couch, too
================================
I have wondered what those were like. I just got finished watching "The Sum of All Fears". The nuclear blast shook my windows. A 15" sub is the ideal size. All it would have needed was "The Buttkicker".
I love Home Theater systems.

John
Catwell wrote on 1/5/2004, 8:28 PM
Take a look at this Alesis system. I have not heard it but I have read very positive reviews. This may not be the cheapest place to buy but I have dealt with them before and I could find it quickly.
It is THX certified.
http://www.bswusa.com/prod_item.asp?item=PROACTIVE5.1
Yoyodyne wrote on 1/5/2004, 8:53 PM
A cheap alternative to the buttkicker is a couple of Aura Bass Shakers - I have two of these in my couch & I can't watch movies anywhere else!

I'm a huge fan of "tactile transducers", they are so cool. It takes a while to get em' dialed in but it adds a whole new dimension to the film experience. When Sauron blows up in the open to LOTR; The Fellowship of the Ring & there is that LFE sweep, oh man!
RichMacDonald wrote on 1/6/2004, 7:00 AM
>Take a look at this Alesis system.

Follow that link to the proactive manual and look at it. You'll see the last few pages carry the Logitech logo. In fact, I believe its exactly the same system as the Logitech Z-680. Which is shocking, for a company like Alesis which carries so many other outstanding products. I did a google search and foundd onee article which alluded to Alesis picking it up from Logitech, not the other way around.

The reviews I read said that the subwoofer was drastically overpowered and needed to be turned down to about 10% to mix properly.

And I heard the Z-680. YMMV, but I didn't like it at all. Those satellites sound cheap.