>>>>My company puts out some of the best third-party loop libraries you will find anywhere, yet we are constantly trying to work on how to get the word out.<<<<<<
You guys certainly make exceptional libraries!! Beautiful Piano is one anyone doing documentaries or weddings should own.

Jess, that is an interesting response. It sure sounds like you did your home work there and your approach sounds very similar to where I am trying to go. I too am on a shoestring budget but probably even more so than you were as I estimate my break even point at maybe 100 units. Also, the target places that I want to market to already have several similar products on their shelves right now, so I am hoping that will help out a lot.

Have you tried any other marketing schemes, like an ebay auction or your own website and e-store?

For your next project, think market FIRST. The world is full of people who may "like" this or that, but only your market, the people who need it or REALLY want it will pay for it.

Know your audience before you make the film. It may seem like prostitution but that's the way it is.

One problem is that, even if your project is the best ever - tourist/landscape type programmes are on TV all the time, so unless someone has a specific interest in the region you've covered, it's really hard to find buyers.

The most simple approach to business is to find something people want, and give it to them. As has been said, an important part of Market research is to establish that there is a demand, see how that demand is currently being met, the size of the market and what sort of selling price is par for the course.

One of the good things about video production is that the same skills can be applied in a great number of different areas. It sounds like you have a feel for quality and content, so if this doesn't turn out to be a goer - try looking in a different direction.

Spot -- thanks for the compliment. Haven't touched base with you (we moved earlier this summer, so everything's been crazy). Hope VASST is going great for you guys.

As for (even more) on this, the "market" aspect is a great point. People buy what they want, not what you think they should want. You may love orange sneakers, but if you're gonna keep the store open, you have to sell black & white ones as well. Trouble is, as Peter points out, there's all kinds of people selling black and white sneakers out there. In a world where you can max a credit card and become a "video producer," quality & content really does start to shake out the tree. If this project doesn't sell, another more strategically planned one will do better if it is put together well.

Sorry I got so long-winded earlier...this topic just hits close to home for me.

I am not sure how you would guage the market of a potential video project. Thats a tough one. I would have thought something that hasn't been done before or is a novel idea has a better shot.

Hey Jessariah, where can one check out your loops?
Thanks,
Randy

Eric Idle of the Monty Python troupe said he has discovered that you can have complete artistic freedom as long as you don't care about making any money. It's true.

I've been producing independent documentaries about counterculture groups and selling them myself at $15 a pop off my website, to local video stores and on places like buyindies.com. I've moved maybe 100 copies of my most successful works, and had them screened at festivals, microcinema venues and cable access television around the world. After four years of this, I'm barely covering my out-of-pocket cash expenses. As for being compensated for my time and effort, let alone turning a profit, forget about it. But I have complete artistic freedom.

On the other hand, I've done "mercenary" "gun for hire" work for other producers, private clients or corporations and made more in a weekend than I have in four years of selling my own work. But I have very little to no say in how the final product is going to look.

You have to decide for yourself, on each project, whether it's a labor of love or you want it to make money. You can certainly switch back and forth between the two, but rarely will one project satisfy both your soul and your wallet. The nice thing about DV technology is that you now CAN work on a labor of love, without mortaging your house, hitting your friends and relations up for money, or alienating your loved ones.

Or, conversely, you can do a calculatedly commercial project, where you've scoped out the market ahead of time, and because your overhead is low, turn a tidy proit. The best way to make money is to have a client or philantropic granting agency pay you UP FRONT for what they think the work is worth. That way, you get paid for your time and don't have to worry about self-marketing and distribution.

www.harkproductions.com

Check out Gorgeous Piano, which has no peers in the ACID libraries from any other provider. It's my fave.
Sonic Graffiti is really sweet, so is Retroactive.
Anyone doing weddings or docco's should have the piano libe...IMO. GREAT for filling up small scenes or creating full length pieces. Very emotional, not loop-like at all.

Thanks Spot!
Randy

Tygrus---

Thanks for posing a very interesting question, and all best wishes to you in your work. I take a kind of cottage industry / oddball iconoclast approach to these matters, so the fate of my project may be the same as yours, soon. In any case, I encourage you to keep trying and don’t be too upset with yourself if things don’t work out perfectly, but absorb your lessons and move a bit further each time.

I’m a newbie. I just finished my first project, a documentary exploration about the magic of language via poetry. (I know what you’re thinking---poetry is the lowest-paid kind of writing you can do, so films about poetry….forget about it. And maybe you’re right. We’ll see.)

The movie is ready to send to the manufacturer for replication to DVD. Now comes the fundraising. I figure I need to pre-sell 125 – 150 copies to raise the money for replication. Between me, the not-unknown poet featured in the film, and one of the musicians whose music forms part of the soundtrack (also somewhat well-known), I figure we have enough friends, family, and fans to put us over the top.

From there it’s marketing, marketing, marketing. Actually, it’s already started. I posted info and clips about the film on my website, and the poet’s website (which I also administer.) I included a form people can fill out that says something like: “Let me know when the film is released.” I’ve gotten a number of responses already, and I figure most of these folks will buy.

I guess I take the Charles Bukowski approach to these matters: I’m going to do my “creative” “work” whether I get paid to do it or not. It’s in me, and it’s going to spill out, come what may. All the “work” I do is a “labor” of love for me. I have a job, and it pays the rent. My film, future films, and future books don’t have to. Now, if by some miracle I find myself in the position of being able to make a living from my “art,” I’ll do it----as long as I don’t have to give up ANY creative control. If I do, why mess with it? I already have a job I hate so I can get money. Why turn my “art” into something I hate so I can get money?

I create the “work," I pay to have it manufactured, and I market it. This need for control stems from a kind of uncompromising stubbornness, I guess, that I realize would sink me in a second were I trying to please a client. Also an admiration for guys like Bukowski, who did it THEIR M.F way no matter what. Instead of pleasing someone else I’m trying to please myself by doing the best “work” I possibly can---quality IS important and I try very hard to do the highest-quality job I can given the limitations of my equipment and experience. I try to create “work” that hopefully contains SOMETHING of value for SOME people. I’d rather try to convince a thousand people to send me $20 than try to convince even one asshole network executive or client why they should fund my film and get even a speck of control over it----even if I make 1/10 of 1% the money by doing it my way.

(BTW, I realize I may sound like some misguided newbie with no idea of how the “real world” works. That’s probably accurate. But at 46, I think I have a slight idea of how the world works, having a few pals who’ve gotten into bed with record companies or their video equivalents, and who regretted the hell out of it. So I’ve decided to do an end-run around the conventional distribution maze if possible. If not, I fall on my face. The falling ain’t a bother as long as you keep getting up again. And nothing says being really big and famous really IS better than having a cottage industry you’re happy with. Maybe it ain’t better, but we just THINK it is. In any case, I don’t think money or fame should be a “creative” person’s goal. His or her goal should be to CREATE SOMETHING. And then, if so inclined, offer to share it with people.)

As to marketing, I intend to do it almost exclusively via word of mouth, email, and the Web. I think it’s important to tell people not only what the movie will show them, but how seeing such things will benefit them as poets and fans of poetry. Features are one thing, benefits another, and both should be explored, I think.

For those willing to wait for their copy while funds are being raised, I offer them a 15% discount on the DVD and another 15% off any subsequent copies they may wish to buy as gifts----and 15% off their first non-DVD purchase from my company (which will offer more books than films.)

There are other little efforts underway but I think you get the idea. Bottom line, if I can’t talk 150 people out of $17 to fund replication, then the film sucks (or my marketing sucks) and I need to move on to the next project.

Again, good luck with YOUR projects!

>>On the other hand, I've done "mercenary" "gun for hire" work for other producers, private clients or corporations and made more in a weekend than I have in four years of selling my own work. But I have very little to no say in how the final product is going to look<<

...you've answered the original poster's question... a die-hard business person would continue being a gun for hire, learn exactly what sells, approach the end users directly and remove the middleman ... once known, you can get artsy again but only from this position of strength... not many have the cajones to do this but it works ...

I will add a vote to much of what has already been said - know the market you are aiming for. And with that know the limits of the market.

That being said I have no first hand marketing when it comes to Canada. In the states it sounds like something that could be used in various areas - provided you could get an "in" to those areas. For example - along major roadway reststops in the kiosks. I have seen travel agents running videos of this sort of thing as well.

The other element is how you market it. IMO I think you would be more likely to reach your goal if you offered this as an audio product that also had multimedia elements. The DVD side is a bit iffy for that at th emoment because most people aren't going out and buying the audio DVD's. But a CD might be different - I am not saying to not offer the DVD but you could offer both.

Short of the whole video fishtank and fireplace tapes that were 'best sellers' I am not aware of any project like this that has had a high ROI. (However I know most of the stuff has been updated for DVD and i have also seen things like water and fire now as well. All of these are set to music.) The other issue is how much would someone pay? I see most of these things in the under $10 sections around here.

"once known, you can get artsy again but only from this position of strength... not many have the cajones to do this but it works ..."

All depends on whether or not you need the video work to pay the bills, doesn't it? If you have a day job, and you can cover costs, why wait to get artsy?

Also, just having a profitable video business doesn't guarantee your "artsy" stuff will sell. I still think they're two different dynamics. Even Martin Scorcese has produced his share of bombs.

You do what you love to do, because you love to do it; who cares if it makes you rich or not?

You do what you have to do to make money; who cares if it's artistically pure?

Not to say that you CAN'T get rich doing something you love. I just think you'll be happier in the long run if you don't EXPECT to.

filmy, those fireplace and water dvds were best sellers? Thats very encouraging to me then.

I have seen similar projects to mine selling for over $30 bucks canadian.

>>having a profitable video business doesn't guarantee your "artsy" stuff will sell<<

..it's not so much the profitable video business as it is the network you build in the industry... there's a reason why artistic and business/marketing talent are traditionally separated and handled by different skill sets... anyway, why try selling pantyhose to lizards when you can give the market what it wants and do it with flair and style..? ... I can't see how this compromises the artist... but in order to do this, the artist must offer his/her services without scaring away potential customers... when someone approaches you for work, the last thing you want to do is tell them you're deep into documentaries about ant farming in Alaska... you'll want to keep the options open and expand your repetoire... in other words, perhaps it would be wiser to stop flogging pet projects and listen to what people want...