I had a PD250 o
zapped the mic input e o
cost me dollar many o
now i have a PD170 o

-------------------------------------------------
I always turn off e 0

I'm not about to wait for 17+ MBs to watch this, but I imagine it's caused by plugging the larger end into the computer, upside-down. While I haven't fried my Sony cameras, I did fry a firewire input on my original datavideo DAC-100 a/d converter. The plug, which you would never imagine going in the wrong way, actually goes in upside-down, quite easily.
I was extremely lucky, because my DAC-100 actually had a firewire on the front and one on the back and the remaining one still works fine.
I don't think this is real common, but if you're too lazy to grab your reading glasses and you're above 40, it could happen if you assume it's impossible because of the shape of the plug. Mine went right in, upside-down, no struggle. You send the power through the wrong wires, and I imagine, fry your camera or at least the firewire input.
I haven't done it since. lol.
EDIT: People wrote since I started writing. I guess I guessed wrong. But the above can happen too.

The original ADVC100's had a problem that would cause them to go up in a puff of smoke sometimes. I fried two, plus a firewire card, plus a couple of drive enclosures. The second round fried the whole bunch in one blow.

Using a 4-pin cable, or a 6 to 4 cable, might help just because it should remove the power from the the cable. But somewhere in the chain there's bus power so you can never be too sure. Maybe if you're just popping memory cards from your new EX into a card reader you'll never have this problem ;-)

Rob Mack

>>>>just popping memory cards from your new EX <<<

Certainly avoids firewire. And the cards are read via USB. Guess Sony prefers USB as more robust, although there is still a firewire port for those wanting to shoot and capture HDV.

Serena,
How common is this problem. I'm not clear whether resulting from hot plugging.Absolutely can occur from hot plugging.
Firewire is not Hot Plug & neither are the cables.

Take a look at your 6 pin firewire connector cable end, notice all the pins are the same length.

Now look at a USB Cable, notice the 2 outside contacts are longer. The outside contacts are the grounded conductors, because they are longer when you plug the usb cable in these ground pins will make the first electrical connection. So they make the ground connections first, then when the 2 power pins in the center do connect the voltage is already stable to ground.
The reverse is true when you unplug the usb cable.

And, if your in the US take a look at any 3 prong electrical plug, take notice that the grounded conductor (the 3rd straight pin, the ground) is Longer than the other 2 prongs. This way the ground connects first & disconnects last.
Same theory.
Bottom line is firewire cables & circuiry is not hot plug. Although Western Digital told a member of my family it is hot pluggable, 4 months later he sent the drive back to WD because the FW port failed.

Therefore, wear high voltage gloves when connecting usb cables........... :)

Yes, all true. In that video the guy didn't say whether he'd hot plugged or not, but I noticed that his BCU appeared to show the firewire light on the Z1 lit while he plugged in the cable. If so, I'm not surprised that he got into a bit of trouble. Certainly I never hot plug, at least not where I have any control over it. I do have an external USB HDD (Western Digital) for my laptop which remains lit after "safely remove", so that still has power applied when the USB cable is pulled.

I really don't see how this is Sony's fault. I've used Sony cameras for years and a) I've never hot-plugged them and b) I've never fried one.

I also found the use of the "o" at the end of every sentence very annoying.

And misuses of past participles "used" too! lol .. .

What is the "o" for? What does it signify?

Grazie

oh o?

The "o" is just a poetic addition - many other examples, such as Hank Williams used in Jambalaya.

I didn't like the Hank Williams tune either. :)

Yes, John - I must admit I found the Chera mio / be gayo stuff a bit over cute!

Why is everybody surprised. Firewire was designed by Apple.
They probably thought those little plugs were cute, and that's enough for them. No need to bother checking further and making sure things couldn't get fried.

Even though their hardware design is shockingly bad in this case I'm not certain it's their fault. It's only been recently that this has become an issue. In 6 years working in the rental business it's only been in the last 12 months we've started to have issues with fried firewire ports.
Maybe manufactuers are cutting corners, with these kinds of interfaces the current from overvoltage inputs is supposed to be carried by diodes external to the interface chip that can carry the current and be dumped safely. If you save a few cents on bits you can endup with a design that lets lots of parts gets fried when things got slightly wrong.
The other possibility is that there's no current limiting, so the full 12V supply from the PC supply is available to really fry things.
All just speculation on my part, been years since I delved into the innards of a computer but still it seems odd that this has suddenly become a problem.

Bob.

edit: I just notice that the guy who started the thread I referred to below is the same one who made the video Serena linked to .

I've been following a thread on the rec.video.production newsgroup titled -Link Fried my Sony.
The OP posted a link to a PDF from Sony titled Important Sony i.LINK Installation Information and here's what it says:

***************************************
Care must be taken when connecting the Sony i.LINK ( IEEE 1394 / FIREWIRE) into your PC / MAC Computer or other Device. The Sony i.LINK connector design is dictated by the IEEE 1394 industry standard and the socket and cable are constructed with a keyed guide to assist with proper installation. It is necessary to visually confirm that the plugs and sockets are lined up correctly for proper installation and to prevent damage to the internal circuitry of the units.

Even though the plug and socket will only fit completely together properly in one

If there is an attempt to insert the plug INCORRECTLY (wrong polarity) the PC / MAC Computer or other Device can supply power to the signal pin of the i.LINK. This directly connects to the i.LINK IC and can damage the circuit.
In order to prevent accidental damage, the following steps must be followed when
connecting DVCAM equipment to a PC / MAC Computer or other Devices via the i.LINK Port:
1. Power down the Computer / Device and DVCAM
2. Connect the i.LINK cable to the Computer / Device by visually confirming
proper fit and polarity.
3. Connect the i.LINK cable to the DVCAM by visually confirming proper fit and
polarity.
4. Turn on the power to the Computer / Device and then the DVCAM.
Please review these instructions carefully. Damage to the DVCAM i.LINK
components caused by improper installation is not covered by Sony’s
warranty.
***************************************

BTW, firewire may have been designed by Appple but we have Sony to
thank" for the 4-pin connector.
Here's a reply from the Executive Director of the 1394 Trade Association to a guy on the SoCal forum after he wrote them complaining about the poor design. Very interesting reading.

*******************************************
I share your sentiments concerning the 4-pin connector.
It has been a passion of mine and a number of people in the 1394TA to see the 4-pin eradicated.
Unfortunately, the 4 pin was a gift to the world from Sony. The very first end product to be introduced with 1394 was a high end digital camcorder from Sony. They chose to NOT use the 6-pin connector for two reasons:
1) It was too large for the small camcorders they intended to introduce in the future
2) They wanted to remove power from the cable because they were concerned that a customer might try to power a device over the cable off the camcorder battery and run the battery down unexpectedly.

The missing "two pins" on the 4 pin vs the 6 pin are "power and ground".

Sony did a great job of getting the digital camcorder world to adopt 1394, but unfortunately, everyone followed Sony by adding the 4 pin connector.

The 4 pin was totally designed by Sony without input from cable/ connector OEMs who could have designed out some of the worst aspects of the 4 pin.

Sony further spread the 4 pin by using it in their notebook computers (for the same battery power and space reasons). Now 95% of all notesbooks with 1394 have the 4 pin. I've had some lengthy meetings with a number of notebook makers, trying to discourage them from using the 4 pin, but in the end, they are adding 1394 because Sony has it so they are copying Sony's 4 pin. They even admit that the 6 pin is better, but they have some fear of using the 6 pin because it
might confuse the customer who is expecting to see a 4 pin on the
notebook.

I became so frustrated trying to use the 4 pin on my notebook in dimly lit hotel rooms with small desks that I banned them from use by any TA employee. The 1394TA will not buy a notebook with a 4 pin (which is one of several reasons why we moved to Apple computers...they NEVER use the 4 pin).

I could go on for another page or two, but in the end, we write standards but can not mandate what people use. The TA is trying but the market clout of the Sonys, Microsofts, and Dells of the world is far more influential.

Get a few of your comrades together and send a series of strongly worded emails to Sony, Panasonic, Canon, and all the other high end camcorder OEMs to tell them you want a better 1394 connector. You might tone down the potentially offensive metaphors. The Japanese are a bit more proper than we Texans are.
I spent three years as a carpenter's helper and a year and a half as a telemarketer. I've heard everything and been called everything imaginable. Your email was at least interesting in its creative imagery.

For better or worse, I am passionate about FireWire and almost as passionate about killing the 4-pin. Your email just happened to come to the right guy. That is one of the rules of telemarketing: "This is a numbers game. The more phone calls you make, the better your chances are of making a sale. Make that next phone call."

In your case, send that next email and this time, send it to someone who can make the change happen. Send the email to anyone and everyone you can find at all the camcorder makers and all the notebook and desktop computer makers. Tell them that you want the 6 pin connector and NOT the 4 pin. The sort of professional cameras you use have enough room for the 6 pin. My Dell x200 notebook is
about as thin as they come and it has a 6 pin port on it. You should stress to everyone that you want 1394 on your products. There is a trend away from 1394 towards USB 2.0. I have some experience in this area. If you want to see your world get even worse, try downloading video over your USB port.

The low-end camcorders you mention do not even factor into this discussion. People who buy $200 camcorders are not quality conscious. They will burn a standard definition video onto a DVD in their camcorder and be totally delighted. When they watch it on their 20 inch SD set, the image is "good enough". 1394 has always been about giving the highest quality and best user experience at a
reasonable price. We have stiff competition from "good enough".
Here is an easy test to run if you are interest. Get an external HDD with both FireWire and USB 2.0. Copy a 1 Gig folder from your computer to the HDD over USB 2.0 and then do it again over FireWire and see which one is faster. FireWire is consistently faster because it was built with quality and user experience in mind. USB was good enough. Their 480 Megabits has a lot of overhead included. FireWire gives you 400 usable megabits. USB 2.0 gives you 300 usable megabits
and all the rest is overhead. But, then I digress...I told you I am passionate about FireWire.

Why not just disable the power pins on the 6 pin port? That is what Maxtor did on their first external HDDs with FireWire. In Maxtor's case, their HDDs required too much power to be powered over the cable (HDDs require less power now). Therefore, they did not want to add the few cents of extra expense adding power to the 6 pin port on their HDDs. In Sony's case, I think it was about space. They wanted a smaller connector that looked like it belonged on a camcorder.
Sony would probably also tell you that it is about consumer confusion. Having a 6 pin that does not provide power will make their customers think the product is broken. As you point out, they selected a connector which wears out quickly and works poorly even when new, so they essentially give you a "broken" connector anyway. When it comes to user confusion, if they really cared, they would drop the i.LINK name and use FireWire which is much more well known in the USA. We have done market research and shown this to be true. I could give you another lengthy rant about the i.LINK name, but I will spare you.

I will show you two slides from my slide deck on the 4-pin vs the 6- pin. This will make you really scratch your head and think twice before buying another Sony product. In 2002 or maybe 2003, Sony wanted to use the 1394 cable to connect an external DVD to their notebook computers. They also wanted to power the external DVD from the notebook instead of requiring an external power supply. That is
a great idea. Dell had the same thought. The first JPEG I have attached "4Pin Dell" is the Dell answer. Put a 6 pin port on a very thin notebook and put a 6 pin cable coming out of the external DVD.
Nice and easy, works well, permits the user to watch a movie on the notebook on a long flight with the notebook attached to the power port on the jet.

"image no longer available"

The second JPEG "4+2 Pin Sony" shows you the Sony solution. Add a separate plug for power right next to the 4-pin plug. !?!?!?! I asked the VP of one of Sony's research labs why they just did not use the 6-pin. His response was that this notebook was designed in Japan for sale in Japan. In Japan, the 6 pin is almost non-existent. He did not think that the Sony designers were even aware that there is a 6-pin 1394 cable/connector.

"image no longer available"

If any of these industry groups you mention have large meetings where I might be able to come and speak, I might be able to work it into my schedule given some advance warning. That is, if you think it would be of any benefit.

Now, go out and fight the good fight.

James Snider
Executive Director
1394 Trade Association
Southlake, Texas
***************************************

Mike

Sony may have given us a 4 pin connector, but it's the 6 pin that does the frying. Apple's fault. Like so many things they designed a 1/2 assed product and lied about it ( saying it was hot swapable without any worries ).

That guy switched to apple because of 4 pin and 6 pin connector?
I dislike 4 pin connector too, because it's too small, when it should be something like the USB connector, but to switch to mac over that is absurd. Mental exam is in order. I hope he gets help.

On the ADVC100, they told me not to even press the power buttonwhile the computer is running. Plug it in, turn it on, then boot the computer.

My solution has been use a 4-pin cable and hope bus power never gets onto the 4 data lines.

Makes me worry about my DSR11, that'd be an expensive replacement for me.

Rob

And Bingo was his name-O.

Rob

It's not exactly "recent". I was blowing up firewire chains 4 years ago. Given all the firewire trouble I was having back then, I think that a lot of the *crap* has been weeded out, or maybe burned to a crisp.

Firewire was really awful for quite a while.

Looks like we're about to buy a 1400 deck for DVCProHD. Let's hope firewire doesn't fry that.

Rob Mack

wait a second.. nearly everyone in this thread turns off, unplugs the computer from the wall (the board/io ports always have power even when off), turn the camera off & remove the battery/AC connector when ever they hook a firewire camera to their PC to capture?

nearly every single on of you?!!?

I've only ever blown out a PS2 mouse port. One port in... i don't know, 20+ years. I've been doing hotplugging all the time.

The argument is that the 6-pin connector is more robust. Very true. But it seems like it's not made for hot swapping, and the fact that it carries bus power seems to make it dangerous. Then again, USB also carries bus power.

My personal experience has been that there's a wide range of quality control in 1394 gadgets. Makes you think it was run by the Bush administration - everybody was out to make a quick buck off of bad designs. Poor controller chips, poor surge protection, poor power control and management, funky driver schemes. Yuck!

In contrast, USB 2.0 just seems to work, all the time. It's not the right format for video cameras but it's been very reliable for me with everything else, so I just reserve 1394 for cameras and my DRS11 deck.

Rob Mack

I think that some of the problem is bad component design. Canopus discontinued the 100s pretty soon after they started blowing up, and the 110 has a different power scheme.

Rob