OT: looking for cheap Sony camcorders

rs170a wrote on 8/5/2009, 10:06 AM
I decided that my SR47 thread was probably the wrong choice of words so I'm trying again.
The AV department at the college I work for wants to buy several new camcorders to replace the old miniDV models.
Because of the way our place works, they have to stick with Sony as a brand.
They also insist that they don't want tape-based models any more.
These camcorders are for general student usage as the Journalism program has four PD-170s for their use.

Because I end up having to edit a lot of the material that the the students shoot, I'm looking for recommendations for something that will plug into Vegas directly, either with a USB cable or a card reader and transfer the footage as it was shot, scene by scene.

The Sony SR47 (they already have one and I don't like it) they're considering is $500 Canadian and that's the price point they've established.

Does something like this exist that will not cause me to pull to my hair out when it comes time to edit?
Any and all answers greatly appreciated.

Mike

Comments

JohnnyRoy wrote on 8/5/2009, 1:45 PM
There are only two tapeless choices at make any sense and they are MPEG2, which that camera already does, and AVCHD which has extremely high demand on PC's to edit. Unless they also planning to upgrade all of the computers to QuadCores to handle AVCHD, I don't see that you have any choice in cameras.

What don't you like about the Sony DCR-SR47?

At $399 USD the SR47 looks like a great little camera. MPEG2 edits easily in Vegas and doesn't take up lots of hard disc space. I have my son shoot with MPEG2 on my Sony HDR-CX12 all the time and it looks great. He's just foolin' around making little movies and it's great for that. I have him shoot in MPEG2 mode because his laptop can't handle AVCHD and I'm not ready to buy him a new laptop;. ;-) What I like about my CX12 is that is has zebras and a fair amount of manual control so I can still teach him the basics of using the camera in manual mode without letting him near my HVR-Z1U. lol.

If they are willing to go for $499 USD they could get the AVCHD based Sony HDR-CX100/R which also shoots MPEG2 in addition to AVCHD. This makes the camera future-proof. They could shoot MPEG2 today and when their PC's can handle AVCHD they can switch to shooting HD.

The bottom line is that the camera is just a teaching tool. What is it's purpose? What is it's intended use? If they are teaching students shot composition, it doesn't matter what camera it is... the basics of composition, rule of thirds, camera angles, etc. are the same. If they are teaching students how to tell stories with video, again the camera is not going to make a difference. Only if they are teaching how to use a professional camera in manual mode where you need the ability to control exposure, shutter speed, white balance, focus, etc. will the choice of camera really matter (granted proper composition often requires more manual control but some of these cameras have that in the menus).

IMHO, the SR47 looks like a great replacement for the miniDV's, the CX100 would be even better.

~jr
rs170a wrote on 8/5/2009, 4:30 PM
JR, thanks for the comments and suggestions.
I have no desire to get into AVCHD as my department is probably the only one in the entire college with computers that are even close enough to being able to edit this footage and even then they're marginal.
I guess that leaves the SR47.
I've only had one experience with it and that was this spring when a student came in with it wanting to be able to edit the footage.
I didn't have a manual for it and could not figure out how to get individual clips off of it.
I ended up feeding the AV out from it into a Canopus box and into Vegas.
When I finally found the manual, it mentioned Motion Picture Browser but, as I've never used it before, I wasn't sure if it was the right tool for the job.

These camcorders are for the student population to use if an instructor gives them an assignment that requires video in some way, shape or form.
Most of them shoot what the need and then have the AV office burn them a DVD of it and hand that in.
Other groups though get more involved and bring the footage to my department for editing.
I need to find out how to get the footage off the hard drive in the same manner as I would if I was capturing from tape.
That is, individual scenes in the order they were shot in.
I can see them in the camera menu but have no idea how to offload it that way.
Any suggestions are GREATLY appreciated.

Mike
farss wrote on 8/5/2009, 4:55 PM
Doesn't File>Import Camcorder Disk do what you want. Been a while since I used that in Vegas but it did work.

Bob.
JohnnyRoy wrote on 8/5/2009, 5:08 PM
> I need to find out how to get the footage off the hard drive in the same manner as I would if I was capturing from tape.

Easy peasy! ;-) When you plug the camera into your PC via a USB cable it will show up as an external hard drive. Just drag and drop the files into your hard drive and you're done. My CX12 came with a docking station and the dock has a USB connector. If I turn the CX12 on while docked, the LCD menu with give me an option to connect to the computer via USB.

If you have Vegas Pro 9.0 then it's even easier using the new Device Explorer. Go to View | Device Explorer (Ctrl+Alt+7) you'll see your camera come up as a drive (at least my CX12 does) and then all of the clips are shown in the browser window with a preview and some info (clip name, date, and size). Just click on a clip to see it play in the trimmer. Select the ones you want to keep and choose Import Selected Clips. They will be copied to your hard drive and added to the media pool. It's as simple as that.

Vegas Pro 9.0 makes it easier than ever to work tapeless. Forget about the Picture Motion Browser, it's not needed with Vegas Pro 9.0. I love the tapeless workflow with my CX12. I think you're gonna like the SR47 once you understand the tapeless workflow. I believe it will be a great camera for students who just need to casually use video.

> Most of them shoot what the need and then have the AV office burn them a DVD of it and hand that in.

They are gonna love having the video in MPEG2 already to burn to DVD. I have a great workflow for them. I bought a Sony DVDirect® DVD Recorder Model VRD-MC5. It's a stand-alone recorder so you don't need a computer. You just plug in a memory stick or the Sony Handycam camera into the USB connection and place DVD media in the tray and hit the big red record button and walk away. It automatically burns a DVD for you. I use 4GB memory sticks in my CX12 that I record on (because that's as much video as a single DVD can hold). I just take out the stick, pop it in the MC5 and press record and the stick gets recorded to DVD. I don't even turn on my computer and I have an instant backup of the video. It even works with AVCHD! It makes Blu-ray formatted DVD's. It's a great way to backup your AVCHD recordings as well. (ok... now i'm rambling) ;-)

~jr
rs170a wrote on 8/5/2009, 7:49 PM
John, thanks VERY much for the help.
Armed with your knowledge and advice, I'll grab the existing SR47 tomorrow and play with it for awhile to get a handle on how it works.
I haven't gotten around to installing V9 Pro on the work machines yet but now sounds like a good time to do it :-)

Mike
JohnnyRoy wrote on 8/6/2009, 3:59 AM
> Armed with your knowledge and advice, I'll grab the existing SR47 tomorrow and play with it for awhile to get a handle on how it works.

Find out if it has a docking station. If it does, don't forget to grab that too. On my CX12 the docking station is the only way to connect it to the computer via USB. There is no USB port on the camera itself. That's the only draw-back but it's a critical piece of information when trying to figure out how to get the video off of the hard disk drive! ;-)

> I haven't gotten around to installing V9 Pro on the work machines yet but now sounds like a good time to do it :-)

There are lots of nice little features added to V9 like the Device Explorer which is a lot like the XDCAM Explorer in previous versions. I think you're gonna like it.

~jr
srode wrote on 8/6/2009, 4:21 AM
If the only thing you don't like about the Sony camea is the capture of video - load the Sony Software - it transfers the media very easily for use in Vegas
ECB wrote on 8/6/2009, 5:43 AM
One other nice feature of V9 is you can insert the memory chip from the CX12 in a card reader and use Device Explorer to transfer the files the same as with the dock.

Ed
UlfLaursen wrote on 8/6/2009, 6:01 AM
Does this work with other than Sony AVCHD cameras?

/Ulf
JohnnyRoy wrote on 8/6/2009, 6:12 AM
> Does this work with other than Sony AVCHD cameras?

I think it does but I can't prove it because I don't have a regular MPEG HDD Handycam but since it correctly finds MPEG2 recordings on my CX12 (which are not AVCHD) it should find them on other Sony Handycams as well.

~jr
MTuggy wrote on 8/6/2009, 11:57 AM
The CX 100 is a nice little camera. I have it as my 3rd HD camera (for backcountry filming as it fits easily in a jacket pocket). It's color and video quality is comperable to much more expensive small HDV camcorders (SR series).

You are right that having an HD capable camera will make its future utility and longevity more likely.

Mike
rs170a wrote on 8/7/2009, 11:01 AM
Find out if it has a docking station. If it does, don't forget to grab that too.

JR, I think it did but, when I went to grab it today, it was signed out for the weekend :-(
I'm on 2 weeks vacation after today so I won't get a chance to try your suggestions until I get back.
I will let you know what I find out.
Thanks again for all your help on this matter as it's greatly appreciated.

Mike
craftech wrote on 8/9/2009, 5:41 AM
Mike,

One thing you may be overlooking is build quality. So let me make a few assumptions and you can correct me where I am wrong:

1. After these are purchased you won't be able replace them anytime soon.

2. Many students are not that careful with things that aren't theirs and bitch constantly.

3. The cameras will need periodic cleaning after frequent student use.

If the above assumptions are correct then I think you need to carefully examine any cameras you plan to buy for build quality. That factor would be a bigger concern with a newer camera than the ones you are replacing especially if they are older cameras. Older = generally better built. If assumption number 1 is correct then build quality should go to the top of the priority list over other "features" for practical reasons.

John