OT: My issues with Sony Action cam (HDR-AS100V)

johnmeyer wrote on 8/31/2014, 11:56 AM
I just received a few PMs from people who wondered why I made a disparaging comment about my Sony AS100V POV camera in a recent thread about trying to correct this camera's unusually strong fisheye distortion, especially when recording in the widest angle view, with stabilization disabled.

I thought I should share my experience.

I bought the camera largely because of the review done by Douglass Spotted Eagle, that he posted here:

POV cameras and Sony Vegas

While his review was accurate and competent, it left out a lot of things that I didn't find out until later.

1. The "LiveView" remote provides no way to play back footage in the field.

2. There is no way to delete clips from the camera, even from the "PlayMemories" software. You can do it in PlayMemories, but only if you first transfer ("import") the clip. If you have already imported the clip in a previous session, and then later decide you want to delete the clip from the camera during a later session, you have to re-import it. This is a big time waster and is just plain dumb.

3. The fisheye distortion when not using stabilization is MUCH worse than the GoPro. It is really quite distracting, even when doing POV video.

4. The compression on the 60p 1920x1080 video (the mode I use most often) creates "clumping" artifacts. I've seen this on other cameras, but it is not as bad as this. The details in trees, grass, and other organic objects are quite poor.

5. I just upgraded the camera to firmware version 2.00. However, I so far haven't been able to figure out how to use Live Streaming for anything other than Sony's service.

6. I thought I would like the form factor better than the GoPro, but in fact it really makes it difficult to strap to various parts of your body.

7. Pressing the buttons on the camera when it is in the case is almost impossible. It requires a tremendous amount of force, and I always have to check several times whether it has started.

8. The Liveview remote is impossible to use in sunlight. Since this is mostly an outdoor camera, this renders this part of the product completely useless.

9. Sony has garnered almost no third party support compared to the GoPro. I knew this going in, but thought I'd still be able to get what I need. The best example is the 3-axis gimble for the DJI Phantom (and other UAV/drone products). The Zemus gimble, as one example, does not support any of the Sony action cams.

10. The third party support extends to almost every other sub-market for this product. This is due not only to Sony's lesser marketing of this product to third-parties (similar to SCS's terrible third party support until the last two years), but also to the lack of an interface connector, something the GoPro has which is used to control it from all manner of remote controls, timers, intervalometers, etc.

11. The Wi-Fi range is pathetic. When I worked with the GoPro last spring, I was doing an evaluation for a military application where they wanted to interview people (with the interviewee's knowledge and consent), but wanted the interviewer to be able to simply walk around a village and talk. They wanted to be able to have another person monitor and record the conversation, and direct the interview remotely, not unlike how news people work, but with complete portability. Using various well-known range extending techniques, we were able to get the GoPro to maintain contact at a range of more than the length of a football field. By comparison, my Liveview remote doesn't work at a range of more than eight feet.

12. The PlayMemories software is incompetent, and there are no alternatives. It gives you the ability to edit out a big dead spot in the middle of a clip, but to do this, you have to first select and in/out point of the thing you want to delete. You then save that. However, this creates two independent clips. If you want to save that as one clip, you have to do a separate join operation. IMHO, this is an essential feature. Why? Because the nature of a POV camera is that you turn it on, and leave it on. However, you usually only need to keep about 5% of the footage you shoot. It makes no sense to archive all the footage of someone waiting in the starting gate, ready to ski downhill, or someone paddling out to catch a wave. So, the ability to do lossless editing prior to archiving the footage is, to me, an essential, mandatory feature of the camera package, which includes the camera's software.
The PlayMemories software can't do much else. There is no distortion correction, and no rolling shutter correction.

There are some nice features compared to the GoPro: the AS100V case is much easier to open and close; the low light sensitivity is better; the sound quality is better; and the battery life is better. And -- and this was the main reason I purchased it -- the stabilization is quite good (the GoPro still does not offer internal stabilization). In fact, that is the one thing that has kept me from putting this camera up on eBay.

So, in summary, this is a good camera when you measure some of its specs, and do simple comparisons, as Spot did in his review. However, when you actually want to strap this on to something and get some footage, and then try to manage that footage in post, it leaves much to be desired. And, if you want to interface this camera to something else in order to adapt it to a specific application, it doesn't hold a candle to what you can do with the GoPro.

Comments

TeetimeNC wrote on 8/31/2014, 1:45 PM
>4. The compression on the 60p 1920x1080 video (the mode I use most often) creates "clumping" artifacts. I've seen this on other cameras, but it is not as bad as this. The details in trees, grass, and other organic objects are quite poor.

I am one of the ones that PM'd John and really appreciated the completeness of his response. The issue 4 above is the one I am most concerned with.

John also mentioned the following that I'll add to:

>7. Pressing the buttons on the camera when it is in the case is almost impossible. It requires a tremendous amount of force, and I always have to check several times whether it has started.

This thread discusses a similar problem with the camcorder cradle for this camera. It is possible this can provide a work around for the problem John states.

Also, BuyDig.com mentions in their latest promotion that they are shipping a replacement waterproof housing and a replacement door with their AS100v's. Perhaps these are fixes for the above problem.

/jerry

farss wrote on 8/31/2014, 3:53 PM
I see it rather as a case of camels for courses. None of this class of camera is going to be perfect. TBH I think my very cheap and now ancient Chinavision Crocolis camera is better in many aspects. Just for giggles I took it with me to a recent shoot along with my EX1 and in the end used as much of the footage from it as from the EX1. To mount it I used a Chinese Noga arm knockoff which worked a treat, at least this camera has a 1/4" thread on the bottom. Heck it even has a tiny preview monitor and it has an easy to use menu and amazingly I can format the SDHC card in the camera.

By comparison the Black Magic cameras provide no facility to format cards or delete clips in the camera, kind of like the days of shooting 16mm, yeah :) I The cards have to be formatted as HFS, that's another challenge to consider and then there's the whole battery thing, useless viewfinder, useless buttons, sigh.

Any of these tiny cameras are always going to involve serious compromises imposed by cost and the size of the camera. e.g. you want great Wifi range then battery life is going to suffer, you want less compression artefacts, then you're going to be filling up expensive cards very quickly.

Bob.
johnmeyer wrote on 8/31/2014, 4:15 PM
Bob,

I agree with all your points, especially the idea that each camera has its own strengths and weaknesses.

The reason I posted is that I found the AS100V lacking when I viewed it using each of the two traditional paradigms for reviewing a product:

1. How well does it compare to some idealized product?

2. How well does it perform compared to other competitive products?

The second approach to reviewing is captured well in Spot's review that I linked to above. The problem with that review, however, is that it focuses only on differences between the GoPro and the other cameras, and not on whether these cameras are actually usable in certain situations. This is where you need to do some analysis based on what a product should do. In the case of a POV camera, where there is no viewfinder for playback, and where, because of the nature of how it gets used, you are going to be shooting ridiculous amounts of video for each minute you actually use, the ability to somehow manage and ultimately delete the tremendous amount of excess video becomes a requirement that isn't normally an issue with more traditional cameras.

As always, each of us adapts to what we have, and hopefully can find workarounds to these problems. I can, for instance, use "VideoRedo" to cut and join clips, although that product has let me down enough times over the three years I've owned it that I am still not quite ready to trust my main workflow to its cutting abilities. Fortunately, the last two releases do seem to handle most AVC/MP4 files much better.



GeeBax wrote on 8/31/2014, 6:41 PM
[I]By comparison the Black Magic cameras provide no facility to format cards or delete clips in the camera, kind of like the days of shooting 16mm, yeah :) I The cards have to be formatted as HFS, that's another challenge to consider and then there's the whole battery thing, useless viewfinder, useless buttons, sigh.[/I]

Bob, are you seriously going to compare the BM cameras with the POV types? The two types are doing entirely different jobs. The BM cameras are high performance cameras, unlike the POV types, and anyone seriously using one is already prepared with external battery packs, VFs etc. And BTW, the BM cameras can be formatted with HFS or ExFAT on a Windows machine, in fact it appears ExFAT is better because it can be read on both platforms.

I was also one who PMd John about his comment. I recently bought an AS100 and I agree mostly with his assessment, however many of the things that are important to John are of no consequence to me for my intended application.

However, I am also noticing the sharpness of the pictures is less than my older GoPro Hero 2, and the wide lens mode is, as John says, useless. I would much prefer a narrower FOV than is provided.
johnmeyer wrote on 8/31/2014, 7:31 PM
the wide lens mode is, as John says, useless. I would much prefer a narrower FOV than is provided.It's not just the FOV, but the curvature. Some amount of curvature is inevitable with a wide angle, but the fisheye on this seems excessive. I posted this still image in the thread that prompted this discussion, but here it is again. I was testing out the timelapse, and recorded a video of me preparing dinner. Note the curvature of the counter and ceiling. Yikes!



However, I didn't pick that image with the idea of showing how bad the AS100V fisheye really is. Here are two frames from the video I took during setup that show you that the video is almost unusable:



This is my attempt at an overhead shot, using a suction cup to mount the camera on the ceiling. This is also pretty nasty:




farss wrote on 9/1/2014, 2:16 AM
[I]"Bob, are you seriously going to compare the BM cameras with the POV types? The two types are doing entirely different jobs. The BM cameras are high performance cameras, unlike the POV types, and anyone seriously using one is already prepared with external battery packs, VFs etc."[/I]

Yes. We have a client using the BMPC as an alternative to the GoPro because of the lens on the GoPro. At $500 the BMPC with a cheap C mount lens can be a viable alternative IF you can live with the other limitations it has for your application.

Really my point was as JM has said all these cheap cameras have their vices and as you said depending on how you want to use them you can end up spending quite a lot more to end up with a camera that's usable for your needs.

Bob.
Zulqar-Cheema wrote on 9/1/2014, 8:43 AM
There is a nice review here
includes accessories





I have been using it and have found that I need to know the battery and SD capacity remotely, remove dead clips to regain space, so i know where to get the camera down and change it.
GeeBax wrote on 9/1/2014, 11:48 PM
[I]At $500 the BMPC with a cheap C mount lens can be a viable alternative IF you can live with the other limitations it has for your application.[/I]

Er, it was $500 in US dollars for a short time only on special, normally it is not that price. Even the Aussie price on special was more than that, and that does not buy you a lens.

Just about all POV cameras are automatic everything, and the Pocket is not. Anyone using it for that purpose would be flat out like a lizard drinking trying to cope with light level and focus changes.

farss wrote on 9/2/2014, 12:14 AM
[I]"Er, it was $500 in US dollars for a short time only on special, normally it is not that price."[/I]

If you want one at the special price drop me a PM, I think there's still a box or two of them left.

[I]" Even the Aussie price on special was more than that, and that does not buy you a lens."[/I]

I think I did cover that. A C mount adaptor is very cheap and there's oodles of new and vintage lenses that work a treat with this camera for very few dollars. Of course you can also spend quite a lot if you want a cine zoom.

[I]"Just about all POV cameras are automatic everything, and the Pocket is not. Anyone using it for that purpose would be flat out like a lizard drinking trying to cope with light level and focus changes."[/I]

Locked off in a studio, concealed in and on cupboards not a problem.

If you're talking about use as an Action Camera then yes, there would be some issues but then many of the objections that JM raised to the AS100V vanish. For example the remote control only has to work over a distance of less than 1 metre.

Bob.
Marco. wrote on 9/2/2014, 4:47 AM
"4. The compression on the 60p 1920x1080 video (the mode I use most often) creates "clumping" artifacts."

Do these artifacts appear when using the 28 Mbit/s MP4 mode or even when using the 50 Mbit/s XAVC-S mode? I haven't been aware of such until now using 50 Mbit/s XAVC-S.
TeetimeNC wrote on 9/2/2014, 8:23 AM
>Here are two frames from the video I took during setup that show you that the video is almost unusable:

John, those examples are truly bad. I assume those were shot using the unstabilized (widest angle) mode. Would they be acceptable shooting the narrower FOV stabilized mode? If so, what is the downside of always shooting stabilized?

/jerry
TeetimeNC wrote on 9/2/2014, 8:25 AM
>I haven't been aware of such until now using 50 Mbit/s XAVC-S.

Marco, so you are experiencing the clumping artifact when using the 50 Mb/s? I was hoping it was limited to the lower bit rate modes.

/jerry
Marco. wrote on 9/2/2014, 8:40 AM
No, I don't. I usually shoot in XAVC-S mode (50p) 50 Mbit/s and I haven't realized such artifacts yet.

.
johnmeyer wrote on 9/2/2014, 11:51 AM
John, those examples are truly bad. I assume those were shot using the unstabilized (widest angle) mode. Would they be acceptable shooting the narrower FOV stabilized mode? If so, what is the downside of always shooting stabilized?This video was the only time I used the camera without stabilization. When using cameras, it is second nature to always turn off stabilization when the camera is locked down, so that's what I did here, forgetting that it also significantly changes the field of view. So, yes, with this camera I always shoot with stabilization on.
CanuckVidGuy wrote on 9/2/2014, 9:49 PM
Regarding the fisheye comments:

I have been using ProDRENALIN 1.0 with my HDR-AS15s since it was first released (SCS had an email with a 40% off link at the time); it was recently updated to include profiles for my HDR-AS100 (I have 2 of those as well) and it is extremely easy to remove the fisheye, adjust contrast / WB, saturation etc.

I did notice since updating the firmware of the 15s that artifacts are slightly less than the 100s with its new firmware but the XAVC S mode is very crisp.
GeeBax wrote on 9/3/2014, 2:14 AM
I notice also that while the Sony handbook claims 24 fps frame rate, it is actually 23.976 fps, so that is disappointing.
TeetimeNC wrote on 9/3/2014, 4:12 PM
I've ordered the HDR-AS100V. Looking for a recommendation on micro SDXC card.

/jerry
John_Cline wrote on 9/3/2014, 4:28 PM
Just today, Sony has announced a replacement for the HDR-AS100V, it's two-thirds the size.

http://www.engadget.com/2014/09/03/sony-action-cam-mini/

As for micro-SDXC cards, I have been using Delkin Industrial cards, they have been fast and flawless. I've had two 64GB Sandisk Extreme Plus cards randomly fail on me for no apparent reason. They have both been replaced under warranty, but I'm afraid to use them.

http://www.amazon.com/Delkin-microSDXC-Memory-Card-DDMICROSDPRO2-64/dp/B00C20KTQ6/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1409779467&sr=8-1&keywords=DDMICROSDPRO264GB
GeeBax wrote on 9/3/2014, 5:57 PM
The new version of the AS100 does not look to be an improvement in any way other than reduced size. The sensor is smaller, at 11.9 Megapixel against the original camera's 13.5 Megapixels. No display screen to speak of, I really don't see the point of this new version.

BTW, John, those Delkin cards are SDHC, not SDXC as Jerry asked, which means they will not work with the XAVC-S mode, as it requires cards with at least a 50 Mb/s record capability.
John_Cline wrote on 9/3/2014, 6:09 PM
GeeBax, the SDHC format only supports cards with capacities up to 32 GB. The Delkin 64GB card conforms to Version 3.01 of the SD specification and therefore is an SDXC card even though it is not specifically labelled as such on Amazon. My 64GB cards say "SDXC", my 32GB cards say "SDHC".

I use them in my GoPro Hero3+ Black all the time which records at 45Mbps in the Protune mode. Of course, I have not tested them in a AS100V.
GeeBax wrote on 9/3/2014, 11:42 PM
OK John, but I would be loath to buy a card off that Amazon site with no specs available on the card. However it is a moot point as half the things that Amazon sell they will not ship to Australia anyway.

The Sony camera handbook says it requires 50 Mb/s but my Sandisk Extreme Plus ones work just fine and they are rated at 45 Mb/s too.

Geoff