No. 7 is pretty common. Most photographers and videographers keep original footage and negatives, and may charge extra for them.

The rest just seems like bad business, and bad planning.

===========
Dave,

I can understand the extra fee for the "raw footage", but I wouldn't call three hours of badly compressed video on a barely playable DVD "raw footage" or am I off base here?

John

I would be calling the Better Business Bureau and the Attorney General of that state. Also hire a lawyer. $11,500 is a lot of money for what was delivered.

At least I hope that is not common business practice. If so, then I just found myself a new profession.

John,

I meant the practice was common, but here again, it sounds like they didn't get what they paid for.

3 hours of badly compressed video is not "raw" footage.

I would also recommend the BBB and see if this company has any kind of history.

Dave T2

First of all, did they get in writing what would be given to them for their $11,500?

I don't do weddings but this applies to the corporate world as well. Get it in WRITING!

I have yet to see a photography / videography company do stellar work on both ends, IMO and I'm sitting in the wedding captial of the world (Utah). I actually have seen one guy do both at the same time. Was pretty funny to watch.

If there was no contract made or emails exchanged or recorded phone calls of what was promised / expected once the money had changed hands and once final product had been delivered then they may have learned a very expensive lesson. Any type of written agreement is crucial in this case, but sadly enough, so many don't even take that step to protect themselves whether business or client.

As for the full price down. I charge 1/3 on contract signing, 1/3 on shoot completion and the final 1/3 on delivery of the product. 2/3 down by the time we're done with production covers up front hard costs and also tells both parties that there is an investment in the product from both sides. The client knows they've put up money for product in work and I know that I've been paid and have a product yet to deliver.

If it's taken a year for this family to recieve their product, the company should (in ideal circumstances) have all of the elements still at hand to rework the production if needed. Worse case is they've sat on the product for a year and all assets are either shelved or thrown out or deleted.

You may have a case with the better business bureau or AG for that state but again, if it's a verbal contract, it's their side, the company's side and the truth.

Sorry to see this kind of thing happen and know there are people out there with licenses doing business this way.

cheno

For the brief period I did weddings, my contract was quite explicit that the video I created was final and not subject to debate for whatever reason. Too many variables at events to promise you'll get grandma in every shot or that the lighting will be right or that you'll include the full 6 minute chicken dance. Then again, I never got $11K for a video... but I always delivered within 2 weeks of the wedding.

The kids took care of the whole thing. They are very young. I asked my friend about her daughter's contract. She said she would ask her for it.

The $11,000 plus was for photography AND video. I asked about the breakdown, but my friend didn't know. Her daughter and her son-in-law had it. The whole thing sounds really dishonest to me.

And the missing footage wasn't people doing a chicken dance. It was the bride's grandparents that were in the raw footage, but not in the final video.

Thanks for the input,

John

As others have said, the contract is key. The most common payment schedule is some down, majority due before the wedding, and balance on delivery. But, there are many who get 100% up front.

I don't see video advertised or described on their site, it could be that they contracted out the shooting and maybe editing too.

They actually were given raw footage as many WedVidSlugs describe it - footage that is (supposedly) viewable, but not editiable. But if the couple cannot even view it I would file a complaint on that as well.

I second getting the BBB involved.

1. I don't do photography except in rare occassions as I prefer to focus on video, but asking for the full amount before even getting a glimpse is not only bad on the part of the business but also on the part of the couple for putting up with that crap.

2. Not common in my area- usually photographers I work with have the pictures to them within 3 months.

3. I do not give a draft copy- so far I have never had a client who was displeased with my work in over 4 years of filming weddings (and I am picky too; if I don't think I can please the couple, then I tell them that someone else may be more of what they are looking for).

4. I state in my contract that I need time with the bride and groom prior to the wedding to go over what THEY want (not mom or grandma). Once we sit down I find out what they want and what they want to be the focus. Usually the family/friends interviews I do cover all the family. I do not believe I can serve my clients well unless I know what they want and I can't know what they want showing up on the day of the wedding an hour prior and expect to do a good job with out prior understanding of their wants and needs for the video.

5. I make sure mine play. I had a father of the bride who stated their disc would not play on any DVD player in the home, but stated that it plays just fine at his daughter's house. I promptly burned another copy on a DVD+R, printed and shipped out to him at no cost. I believe that a good reputation far exceeds the cost of a measley DVD, some ink, shipping and less than 10 minutes of time.

6. I have stated in my contract that our business is not subject to matters of opinion, i.e. if I deliver you a DVD with your footage on it with the package you purchased, that is what you are entitled to. How do I alleveate fears that they are not going to get crap? I show them FULL weddings that I have filmed before and let them decide with no pressure. Also, If I cannot deliver, I refund them. This has never happened, but it is good to know that they are not going to get ripped off. Something else on this, I tell my clients to ask their friends who they used. I also tell them that they can call some of my previous clients (with permission of course) to see if they liked what I did.

7. Raw footage is definitely extra- some do not sell it. Now, if I just could not please them (Meaning I should not have signed a contract with them and I misread them when looking into them as clients), then I would probably just give them the footage- along with a hefty discount just to show them that I am not trying to pull one over on them. I will take my losses and mark one up for learning.

8. I don't reuse my tapes so unless I had a fire, yours would still be on file for as long at the tape stays good.

By the way, if they did not get to see the raw footage, how do they know that family members are on it that are not on the final edit?

Edit: Also, I get half down (deposit for securing the date) and the rest before I start filming the day of the wedding.

j razz

I would like to know if any of the following business practices are common for wedding videography.

1. They had to pay the entire amount (around $11,000) up front before they were allowed to see any of the photography proofs.
They paid in cash.

((This is quite common, however its only done under contractual conditions. Inc full invoice, client info, and studio agreement. i dont hit record until they pay me in full... ive had too many clients change their minds or use their payment fee as a bribe to force changes to their work. Ive never had a client unsatisfied, but if its a minimal change which i wont do, i wont deal with people saying, ""ï wont pay if u dont"

2. After a year they still don't have all of the final photos.

((Well, this depends on the proofs..and teh album image selection etc etc.. best they contact the prodcuer directly))

3. They were not given a draft video copy for approval, only the final copy of the wedding video a year later.

((This is common. I dont give preliminaries.. but it seems many people assume that theyre enttiled to it. Difference though is that i myself show FUL WEDDINGS.. not hilights.. i show what the product ahs the possibility of looking like. If a client request certain changes, dependin on the workload and rendering required, then i might change it, but in general, the editing is my discretion. If theyre high end clients, then preliminary sittings in teh edit are offered, but theyre paying for this.. ))

4. The wedding video had many IMMEDIATE family members either omitted entirely or panned by quickly. At one point some people were in the video that the videographer apparently mistook for immediate family members.
((Its up to the client to advise the shooter/producer as to who is important. We''re not mindreaders and if family are going to evade the camera (as some do) then we cant be held accountable for them not being in the video. to be frank, ive had clients have their mums and dads pay the bill, but in the end, that dont mena shit to me, coz teh client is the bride and groom. And i ONLY speak to them. Ive had family and dads and uncles call me, and im like, ""You'll need to bring these to the client and they can approach me. Its a privacy issue as theyre the ones that signed the contract. "" I wont put up with any more family crap (whenu do 50 weddings a year, its bound to happen) Persoannly, compared to what phtoogs make, we dont get paid enough to put up with this kind of rubbish.. ))

5. The video had many glitches, motion artifacts, and wouldn't play all the way through on any of the DVD players my friend tried in her house.
((this is common.. bes tthey get in touch with teh producer and request a master copy, burnt at slow speeds using differing DVD+/-r formats. THis ensures that it will work no matter where it goes.. ))

6. When she called them on the phone she was told that (despite their promise of "satisfaction guaranteed") there wasn't anything they could do about it now.
((Whys that? There has to be a reason? Also if they dont keep copies, then theyre in the shit, coz if teh discs dont work, theyre selling a defective product. Theres always the legal route.. which i would recomend if they refuse to rectify the dvd issue.. ))

7. Frustrated, my friend asked for the raw footage and was told that it would be another $500 in cash for the raw footage which they paid.

((I charge $880 for unedted footage to be transfered to dvd For tapes, i add $55 per tape. Nothign is free, and with the time it takes to do this, an asking price should be expected.. funny thing here is that people dont question paying extra for high res images or raw formatted pics from their weddings, but for video, they all want it for free.. sorry but this is a common attitude amongst weding clientelle and it sickens me when people are happy to pay 30bux for a reprint without question, but are loath to pay the same amount for a feature length dvd presentation. ))

8. Instead of raw footage they were sent a DVD with three hours of video footage compressed on it that was unplayable and what little did play was worse than a fourth generation VHS tape. When she called to complain she was told by the receptionist that the original tape was "probably erased".
((more than likelyu recycled and reused.. common.. but if they had teh footage to throw onto a dvdr, then they must have sourced the raw material from somewhere.. ))

My question is, how much of this stuff is common practice in the wedding videography business?

((Common? Each business is different. I might charge everythign upfront for weddings, but thats becuase ive had clients baulk, and go broke, while others break up after 3 months. i wont risk that. So i work under contract and expect all payments upfront. THe client knows that im the shooter and editor, as well as managing their entire account. they also know that im a one man band, and that i edit longform, so my edits not only take longer, but i also have many more clients as most of my work is word of mouth. I charge for raw footage, but sometimes i offer it free to appease some cleints who piss me off (usually the ones that dont read the contarct and want their video soon after their photos.. ). The biggest issues i deal with is clients taking their time in selecting music.. ive got clients who been married for 18 months.. and only recently sent me their music cd... then, had the audacity to complain that its taken this long. Fact remains, my contract clearly states that editign wont begin until all material is recieved. They sign this, its up tto them to get off their butts.

As for your friend, i think she has reason to go legal with this,

This company sounds like a photo and video factory to me. In our area, there are a few that offer both services, but also don't have pros doing the work. They train High school and college kids to take photos and video of weddings and pass them off as pro's. This kind of thing is hurting the wedding industry. I would take legal action if they are not happy.

We generally proceed like this:

The customer is shown an example of wedding we shot, so he can himself decide whether how we shoot is what he wants or not. If he wants to hire us to shoot he event, he signs a contract. We shoot and edit the whole event, and afterwards invite the customer to present him the final video, so he can still tell us if he wants something changed. After this, the DVDs were created and at this point the customer pays (never had a problem with nonpaying customers). Should there be any DVD not playing for some reason, it will be replaced free of charge. There could always be technical problems with a camcorder or other equipment event not noticeably during shooting (we had luck, until now this was never the case). In that case we deliver the customer what we can edit using the remaining footage free of charge.

As to given raw footage to customers, we don't do it. First of all, (at least here in Luxembourg) nearly none has the necessary equipment to play HDV tapes. So, how would you give it to the customer. If changing resolution to DV it would no longer be raw footage. Or even worse applying mpeg2 compression to give DVDs with it. In order to not have this sort of problems, we simply don't give it.

Hmmm .. not good . .

My Feedback: On Paying Cash & No Contracts

Without getting into the ins and outs of best practice in the Wedding Vid commissioning biz, I never EVER pay cash on ANYTHING that I don't NEED too. Certainly NOT on an item that is $11k plus!! What on earth was the advantage in paying over such a sum? I would really like to know?

Paying by cheque or CC or ANY other form or method of payment will in itself create/produce some kind of an audit trail - very useful just for times like this? Just mull over that for a nano second. It produces an audit trial. Yes?

I've commissioned and received commissions in all types of projects. In the last 4 years they have been videographic. Prior to this it was in another business I created. It has been and still is my experience that contracting and shared agreements, no matter how "simple" they are, are at the centre of any successful venture. No existence, avoidance or perseveration (stalling!) over such items is an indication of a warning as to what might happen. Not wanting to offer/create/share a form of formal contract would indicate to me to politely walk away.

When I here of instances like this - and we will hear more too - I'm both saddened and angry at the, IMHO, bad REP that this gives the rest of us - wedding, corpo, doco - whatever.

In the UK we have bodies that take care and give advice to best practice. This is why I signed up with the Institute of Videography 4 years back. And as a result I can garner best videographic BIZ info from others who HAVE been around for decades.

But this experience is not good. Not good at all.

The whole story stinks.

It's time to call a lawyer.

$11,000 bucks is NOT "chump change". Get a lawyer now.

v

Get screwed once and you'll understand why some wedding videographers (like me) get the entire amount up front. I collect 35% down to hold the date, and ask for the balance by the wedding day. The deposit is non-refundable (what's the point of the deposit if you have to give it back?). You'll understand this practice after you get screwed out of a date after the bride cancels and you've already turned down another request for the same day.

I GIVE my bride and groom the raw footage if they ask for it (less S&H). However, I do try to sell them on a $200 DVD master of the raw footage (who wants to whip out a DV camcorder to view their raw footage? DVD is easier, and I nearly always get it).

I only make free changes to the DVD if I made a mistake... not other reason. If they wish to make a change, they pay hourly. No drafts... no approvals... as is. This is why PRE-PRODUCTION MEETINGS are so important. Spell EVERYTHING out. If I didn't get enough of Aunt Millie, it's because Aunt Millie didn't want to be on camera or I was shooting someone else when Aunt Millie did the chicken dance. I offer a second shooter for more $$$ if they really want lots of specific shots guaranteed.

I try to sell as many DVD copies to them as I can, but do not object to them making copies if they wish... I remind them that it won't look at good if they do it.

I like to deliver my weddings two weeks to two months after the event. It depends on how busy I am or how nice the weather is.

I only charge $1,300 for my premier package. That's the going rate in Rochester, NY for the bulk of the brides (I don't care about the high-end weddings... or the low-end... both of these groups are TROUBLE and expect the world).

All this being said... I really am an easy-going, client-focused guy. I get jobs because the bride likes my style, approach, professionalism, and quality. Yes, all the stuff I mentioned above is the behind-the-scenes stuff... but it is the face-to-face stuff that wins clients hearts.

I think you've got plenty of response already but here's my take.

I do wedding video professionally, and I have done wedding photography professionally as well. In my opinion, for a $11k photo-video package you should expect top-notch professional service and nothing less, and surely a written contract would be involved at this level (!) I do not charge anything like that. For video it is usual to require a significant deposit (mine is 50%) on booking and the full amount the day-of. For photos normally the shooting fee is up front and the package may include some number of prints, or not. Traditionally proofs would be without additional charge but the final prints would be sold separately. My typical photo turnaround is a few weeks (for proofs) and typical edited video turnaround is 1 to 3 months depending on the season. I do know that some people and companies get huge backlogs and 1 year+ is not unheard of.

I do not offer wedding customers a preview before final edit, that's not cost effective. For other larger jobs (documentary work with institutional clients) it is expected and I have done it, this all comes down to cost. My contract lays it all out.

Raw footage is almost always extra. Since I shoot on HDV tape there is next to no chance a consumer can use this directly, I have to convert to DVD. I've tried just dumping onto a standalone DVD recorder and was never happy with the quality. I have to use my editing computer to convert and this takes time and time is money!

Even at my quite modest fee I feel there is no excuse for poor video quality, and no excuse for not offering to exchange DVD media that doesn't play. I never reuse tapes for any paying job. Eventually I may run out of storage space, fire / flood / etc. but not yet. Sounds to me like your raw footage may have come from a highly-compressed archived copy and they reused the original master tape. Personally I would consider that not professional, but that's just me.

I do rely on the couple (or whoever signs the contract) to tell me who and what needs to be on the video. If they expect "x" seconds of face time for each relative outside of formally arranged events, they will need to specify who is who (but no one ever has, and I've never had a complaint about this). By default, my focus will be on the wedding couple. I will capture all participants in the ceremony (eg. members of wedding party) and hopefully everyone on the dance floor at least briefly, but if there's some shy family member who is just sitting somewhere out of the action, they would normally be seen only in a group portrait, or in a wide shot of the entire ceremony or reception where facial recognition would be marginal anyway.

regards,
John Beale
Beale Corner Productions
www.bealecorner.com

I do weddings professionally as well. There are some great responses here and here's my additional 2 cents.

We always give couples the opportunity to make small changes to the video once they have received a rough draft. Small is our discretion. Sure it costs time and money but we price that into the cost of the video. It is a feature of our service. Believe it or not sometimes these changes have resulted in a better video, for them and for us.

We always want our wedding videos to be the best that they can be. We are on the lookout constantly while we shoot and create a decent amount of raw footage. This gets distilled into a final product, but of course not all of it makes the cut. Only the couples know what's really important to them and they don't always know what'll happen ahead of time or how it will be covered. Weddings are very much on the fly events. We do as much groundwork ahead of time as possible but there's always going to be situations that don't quite fit the plan.

We don't provide raw footage in general because there are just too many implications to list. There have been certain instances we have done it but only for certain clients.

We have made sure that our contract reflects in writing the way our customers will be treated and we also go over this with them verbally so they understand the rules that underlay our relationship. If they're okay with it they sign, if not, we thank them for considering us and they're on their way. We want people to be happy with the work we do so we will work with them to make things right if they aren't (the exception to the rule).

The written contract here is key to any legal action and it sounds like it might be necessary considering their lack of willingness to make things right.

John
DCV - Divine Creations Video
www.divinecreationsvideo.com

Wow!

I didn't expect this many responses. It seems like there are quite a few different ways you all approach wedding videography, but I haven't read anything here that even approaches the poor business practice this outfit seems to employ. While I understand the argument that it is up to the customer to indicate who they want or do not want included in the video I seriously doubt that ANY of you have to be told to include the grandparents. And if you DID for some reason leave them out and then told the client that the grandparents were on the raw footage you would make good on it somehow. This outfit saw it as an opportunity to further screw these people. The final DVD copy aside from the missing grandparents was some of the worst quality I have seen. I was at the wedding and although I wasn't really paying much attention to the video equipment (believe it or not) I seem to recall that they had Digital Betacam cameras and either a PD150 or PD170.
What makes it worse is that this was an upscale wedding and the photogrpher/videographer even had the instant wedding ceremony production ready to show at the reception. That actually looked good, but they didn't get a copy of it.
I think she is going to pursue legal action if they won't try to meet them half way.


Thanks a lot for the help. She and her husband are good friends of mine.

This stuff makes me happy I do only stage productions.

Regards,

John

"but I haven't read anything here that even approaches the poor business practice this outfit seems to employ"

John,

I think you've had quite a bit posted in reply to your initial post that suggests this outfit may not have performed to ethical standards. Do you want a flat out, "they're wrong"? - it's subjective because we don't know all of the details. Was there a contract? If so, what was promised? Did they deliver what was promised? If not, then there is a case but most likely only if the promise was in writing.

First red flag for me? Their website says nothing about videography. It's good looking and shows some beautiful photography work but again, the guys that claim to be the one stop shop for everything generally don't do it as well as ala carte.

I think there is a case here and $11k is an awful lot of money to feel like you've thrown into the toilet but I've been on the production side long enough to know that if it's not all in writing, there's always room for error and misunderstanding.

cheno

After reviewing the responses I couldn't resist to participate. Everyone has shared many good comments and it goes without saying that this experience has been unfortunate. If a case can be put together - legal actions sounds appropriate.

My business provides both video and photography services. Am I the best at both - absolutily not, to think such would be arrogant and not allow for the opportunity to learn and improve. Thats why I work and obtain the people who are. I started providing both to survive and to stay in business allowing for future growth.

Here's my run down.

1. I ask for a 25% deposit. In my area paying more than $4K for both services would be outrageous.

2. We deliver usually within 4 to 6 weeks. If needed we take the iniative to establish communication explaining why there may be a delay. Communication is the key and is appreciated.

3. I deliver a finaly copy, but allow the opportunity to view it in the office. They then have seven business days to address any changes - due to editing mistakes. After such the changes are billable.

4. Our style is to help document the day not produce it. It's an uncontrolled environment. I share with the client that their is no one yelling "Action". This creates a sense of humor but an understanding that we are not in control of what the immediate family member will or will not do.

5. We replace any DVDs at no charge. We also have them initial on a completion form that there is not a 100% compatibility with all discs / players. The 6 year old DVD players are still out there - its not the disc.

6. Poor business - poor client relations.

7. Never had anyone ask for the raw footage. We are open to releasing it though.

8. Paying clients deserve new tapes.

I appreciated the opportunity to review other responses as its good to what is done else where.

Chad