I think this also revolves around how Jim hired you. If he hired you as staff then you do have an obligation to promote Jim's company. If he hired you as a contract worker then you're a free agent.

If you're on my set, and you pitch my client, and I find out...
don't bother to Ever Call Again.

Right ...Ron? Mark? Harvey?

How much did that little mistake cost you guys over the years... huh?

(Victor is not always compassionate )

Remember there are NO friends in business - period

I want people around me that I can trust - because you can trust me.

If someone offers me a job on someone else's set, that job and that client goes throught their company.

Finding clients is the hardest part of this business - and it's the only thing they don't teach you about in any school I ever heard of.

And the pyramid gets smaller and smaller, the closer to the top you get. Your reputation is the only thing that you've got - besides your talent, which is easily replaced by someone else.

Never screw anyone - don't steal (props, equipment or clients) - and you'll never have to overcome a bad reputation.

All this from a guy with a few mistakes (lessons) that are over 40 years old - I still squirm when I remember what youthful greed and ego led me to. But every mistake is an opportunity to learn something, and what I wrote above is what I learned and pass on - at the University of Hard Knox .

The short of it is....What are "Ethics?"
The "Golden Rule" seems to be the best all-around explanation, doesn't it?

Interestingly enough, this subject came up during a round table event at DV Expo. One fear that a lot of videographers in the biz have, is that with the cost of entry to higher end video dropping like a stone, it attracts people that haven't "paid" the price of being in the biz, so they're willing to be compromised in order to rocket their way to the top of the biz. Myself, I don't think it has anything to do with the cost of entry. Either you're ethical, or you aren't. It might be as the pool of videographers/editors/producers expands, that we see more ethic-less people coming into the biz, but they'd be in some other biz if they weren't in this one. The best we can do is to expose them, not deal with them, and let others in the biz know what sort of person they're dealing with.

my take - you wouldn't have had the gig if it weren't for Jim so anything that comes of that is due him. Worse case scenario is you talk to Jim (if this client ever calls) and discuss it. Maybe he's okay with you taking a smaller gig, maybe he wants a finder's fee or maybe he'll want your head for talking business with his client.

cheno

I think perhaps part of the problem is not just the cost of entry but the fact that we can do it all ourselves. When we're not forced to interact with a team we don't develop the trust that Victor talked about.
Also as a larger percentage of us are working for ourselves with no safety net, it's unfortunately understandable that we become more self serving.
Bob.

I appreciate all the philosophizing -- what your "ethics" question comes down to in my experience is three basic rules:

1) Keep your agreements. This is rule #1.

2) When in doubt, refer to rule #1.

3) There is nothing unethical or illegal about self-promotion, so long as you don't break rules #1 or #2. IOW, if you are under contract, give the other guy your business card and tell him you'll give him a call when your current contract is up.

Awesome topic. My take, before you discuss anything with the client, talk to Jim and see what his feeling is. Explain to him what the client said but most importantly be honest. If Jim cares about your work and contribution, he may very well encourage you to take it. If you act sneaky and dishonest, it will only piss Jim off.

Me, I would have no problem as long as employee was honest upfront. I am not one to hold anyone back from anything especially more work to make more money. But go behind my back or pitch a client without being approached first, Ill cut your testicles off and feed it to you.

Ethics are a lost art form these days ESPECIALLY in the video business. I know three editors that are fairly new within the last year that have taken porn editing jobs even after the long talks on why they shouldnt go that route. Still, they chose that route any way and apparently one of them is cutting for a major company (Hustler.) Now whats screwed up is he makes way more than Ill probably ever make yearly but i have my integrity at the end of the day. His response: "While youre eating youre integrity for dinner, Ill be having lobster."

It just starts to feel like ethics anymore are only for people that can afford them.

My take, before you discuss anything with the client, talk to Jim and see what his feeling is.
Another viewpoint on that: If you discuss things with Jim, it can really sour the relationship between the both of you if you go about it the wrong way. Some people might see it the wrong way (that you would like to steal their clients... which is sort of what you're asking).

At the same time, the client probably isn't yours.

This has actually happened to me - twice. In both cases, I told the potential client to "go talk to Jim, I work for him". Who do you think that Jim calls when he needs another shooter or AD?

Frankly, I wouldn't want a client who would try to do this. Who else has he screwed?

Steve Mann

Recently, I brought up "integrity" (which is connected at the hip with "ethics") and was somewhat poo-pooed by a few individuals. So yes, this is refreshing!

I think the first thing to take into consideration is the way the situation was originally presented. The client approached the shooter, liked him and his approach to problem solving, and then asked for his card. It wasn't the shooter offering the client his card. Two different scenerios entirely! Isn't it?

In my real job I am (for lack of a better term) a programmer. When I was consulting back in the 80's (ran my own consulting firm for 11 years) if I was sub-contracting through another company, I would always funnel my work for any client through the company that connected me with that client in the first place. I may have lost a smaller portion of the fee (about 10%-20% as the sub-contracting fee) but my rep was spotless and I was approached many times by repeat clients and consuting firms, and many one month contracts grew to multi-year deals.

Ethics is ethics - regardless of the business, and should also involve your personal life as well - Just MHO.

Bruce

If the client is approaching you, then he is probably not completely happy with the work Jim has provided in the past and he will be looking elsewhere in the future.

A win-win situation is for the client to realize he can request you on future shoots working through Jim. This gets you and Jim business, makes the client happy and builds your reputation.

Now the sticky part - getting this to happen so that Jim doesn't think you are the one promoting yourself to the client. Depends on your relationship with Jim.

Firstly I think the question of whether or not you decide to work on a porn video is a question of morals not ethics.

To the issue at hand, here's a simple test.

Ask yourself what would happen if everyone did it, would the world be a better place or not.

As the client's offer seems to be a case of opportunity knocking then the question is what'd happen if none of us opened the door to opportunity. If that's what this truly is, remember to thank Jim when you accept your Oscar.

If it's a case of you actively trying to steal Jims client by telling them you could do a better job for half the money while you're accepting Jims money then I don't think you need me to spell out what kind of place this would be if we all did that.

Bob.

Handing out a business card is fine. I would have no issues with it on my set, matter of fact it is almost expected. Handing someone a business card is not as huge a deal as some of the posters here have made it out to be. IMO ethics shouldn't really enter into this picutre unless the conversation was "I am looking to replace the DP do you have a business card and a reel?" - but than again I have worked on enough projects where people have been replaced for various reasons those business cards come in handy. One feature the DP was told at the get go they had to make the day or else they would be replaced. Three days into it they were a day and a half behind, the DP was fired and replaced by the gaffer.

Also as I see it the question was about being a second unit/second camera and on multi camera shoots you always have a need for other people. By tradition the DP would bring in their people as far as the key/main crew but there isn''t anything that says the producer can't call people as well, especially if they need to put together a second unit, especially one that might be specialized. (Time lapse, product shots, stunts/action, landscape/sunset/sunrise)

Everyone is asuming that by handing out a business card you are seeking to take over...the question was a lot more vauge than that and said you are a second cam. Jims client is on the set .During the day you get to know the client a bit ,he/she seems to like the way you shoot , and your input during the production. Asks for your business card. Like I already said - no problem with that.

The industry is a hard place to live in at times - people get back stabbed *all* the time. You learn to deal with it as much as you learn to deal with bad reviews and large egos. In the example I gave form one of our films the DP was pissed because he had brought in the gaffer and in theory the gaffer should have said "If he is fired I walk" and not "Sure I will take over" but the karma came into it on the next film he was hired to shoot because I ended up taking over and fired him and hired a much better DP - the guy who he had replaced. And to add to this he never worked on any other films in any way for the compnay, not because of his "ethics' but because of his attitude. I would show up on the set (before I took over as director) and he would be kicked back barking out orders but not doing anything. I woudl ask what he was doing and he would laugh and say "Let them do my work, I am not getting paid enough." Plus the lighting was horrid and the camera work was dreadful.

Here is a better "ethical" question and one I have seen a lot. Using the same scenrio but slighty change one thing - instead of asking for a business card they ask if you can direct. Change this to anything really - like asking you if you can run sound or asking if you can be a gaffer. Do you "ethicaly" take the gig even if it is not what you really do because you want to work? Or do you refer the job you someone who you know does do that?

"Do you "ethicaly" take the gig even if it is not what you really do because you want to work? Or do you refer the job you someone who you know does do that?"

REFER REFER REFER. Some things in life you just cant fake. And its not like the client will not see the end result of someone who is out of their element and lacks the skills.

So while you might get the gig for a moment, you are truly destined to lose it if you dont have the skills.

After reading other responses, I still stand by my answer. The client could be interested because next time he hires Jim, he wants to make sure you are on the crew. Or he (or she) could just like you.

It is only when you discuss business, such as pricing a job or working instead of Jim, that the ethics question comes into play.

Since you didn't say anything about the client being specific about why he wanted your business card, then like I said, you have just exchanged phone numbers at this point.

Dave T2

One issue that hasn't come up is this: What are your long term plans? Do you plan to work for yourself, and never work for Jim -- or anyone else -- at any time in the near future?

When I was getting ready to start my own company, I was still working for someone else. While still working for that company, I felt morally and legally obligated to do everything for them, and not "siphon off" business towards my pending enterprise. However, once I left, I certainly felt free to contact people whom I met while working for my old company -- and every company before that. None of us would have careers and no new companies would ever be started if we couldn't legally and morally do that.

If you are about to start your own business, I would certainly exchange business cards -- that's standard practice, so there's nothing wrong with that -- but make it clear that all business goes through Jim. Then, if you decide to go into business for yourself, after you have actually "hung out your shingle," given the client a call and go for it.

What you DON'T want to do is start taking little jobs on the side from this client while the client still employs Jim and while you still haven't started a full-time business. Not only does it cross ethical lines, I can almost guarantee that you'll be getting marginal work for marginal pay -- probably the reason the client is interested in the first place because he/she thinks you can be hired for a lot less than what Jim is charging.

“Relativity applies to physics, not ethics”

Albert Einstein