Thanks Laurence.

No.... the updates don't work on the trial.... but I'm thinking that the whole MF6 plus and the HD package is only $100 or so... I may bite the bullet anyway.

It seems to be MUCH faster than Pinnacle at smart rendering mpeg to SD dvd anyway. Also faster with HD... it's only the adding of AC3 files that seems to slow it WAY down.

Does MF6 still mpeg-2? Id love to find a quick and easy alternative that allows for H.264/VC1 encoding. Any advice?

If you combine the mpg and ac3 files in MF6+, it will rerender the video. If you multiplex the mpg (or m2v) with the ac3 outside of MF6+, say with Womble MPG-VCR, to a mpg program stream, MF6+ will not rerender.

"If you combine the mpg and ac3 files in MF6+, it will rerender the video. If you multiplex the mpg (or m2v) with the ac3 outside of MF6+, say with Womble MPG-VCR, to a mpg program stream, MF6+ will not rerender."
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Rendering isn't really the problem... I can get a good render out of MF6. It's the additional render time that I am questioning.

If I import a 1080i MPG with conventional audio into MF6 (a 40 minute timeline) it smart renders and is complete in about 10 minutes. But if I imort a MPG (with no audio) and a AC3 file, my render time jumps to about an hour (plus burning time)

With Pinnacle studio the approach must be handled a bit differently because you can't import AC3... you have to import 3 separate stereo WAV files, set them up for front, rear, center and then render as DD5.1 sound. But the render time is the same for conventional audio as opposed to DD5.1 sound. I can render a 40 minute timeline in about 15 minutes in stereo sound... or DD5.1

So given the fact that I can turn out a rendered result in studio MUCH faster than MF6... I'm wondering if this is a bug or what?

With MF6+ and the extra HD plugin pack, you use the following:

mpeg2 for HD DVD or 3x DVD (HD DVD on a DVD+-R)
mpeg2 or AVCHD for Bluray on BD-R media
AVCHD for AVCHD disc (Blu-ray compatible on DVD+-R media)

I've tried Mpeg2 for HD DVD and it's a FAST render.... so long as I stay with conventional mpeg audio. But as soon as I replace the mpeg audio with a AC3 (mute the original audio track and insert a AC3 file from Vegas onto the voice or music track) file the render time goes WAAAAY up... It jumps from from 10 minutes all the way up to to about an hour.

Meanwhile Pinnacle will push out a HD DVD disk in DD5.1 sound in about the same time as it will conventional audio... about 15 minutes.

Don't you just render the AC3 audio to a separate file?

If you combine the audio and video in MF6, MF6 recompresses the video (i.e. no "smart render"). If you combine (multiplex) the video and audio into an mpg before placing it into MF6, MF6 does not recompress (i.e. it "smart renders").

"Don't you just render the AC3 audio to a separate file?"
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Yes.. this is what I'm doing. To the best of my knowledge, you have to export a SEPARATE mpg and ac3 file from Vegas because you can't multiplex a mpeg and ac3 and export as one complete file.
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"If you combine the audio and video in MF6, MF6 recompresses the video (i.e. no "smart render"). If you combine (multiplex) the video and audio into an mpg before placing it into MF6, MF6 does not recompress (i.e. it "smart renders")."
==========================

The point I'm trying to make though is that recompressing merely because of the audio should NOT be (or doesn't have to be anyway). Pinnacle doesn't have to recompress. In fact Pinnacle quite naturally captures hi def as separate audio\video files( m2v/wav ). In other words, any hi def file that you deal with in pinnacle is NON multiplexed. It's multiplexed during the render WITHOUT recompressing.

So I know it's possible to multiplex without recompressing.... the question is... why is it recompressing in MF6?

I know I have done it without recomrpession.

Can you tell me your steps Laurence... every time I try adding a AC3 file, I start recompressing again.

I know that if I leave the presets alone (the ones that MF have chosen for me) then I get a smart render. But as soon as I add a AC3 file to the music track and change the output setting from mpeg audio to Dolby digital (5.1)... it starts recompressing.

My end result SHOULD be a 40 minute HD DVD with 5.1 sound WITHOUT recompressing.

OK I just looked a little deeper. I've never done a 5.1 AC3 surround video. I've just done it with stereo layer 2 audio. This is for the HD DVD compatible 3x DVD.

On the other hand, a Blu-ray compatible AVCHD disc does use AC3 audio compression with the stock template. I've only used the stereo option, but the surround option is there for the clicking.

I use Vegas 8.0a and create a HDV 1080i file with Dolby 5.1 edited audio to create a m2ts transport stream file ( 1 file from Vegas ). Then insert that into MF6+ and burn a HD-DVD or Blu-Ray Disk with the mpeg2@25MBS & my Dolby 5.1 audio tracks. It's very fast, no re-encoding. MF6+ goes right away and displays video/audio multiplexing.

I do this right from vegas and when encoding the video the no-recompress screen pops up in the preview window. This "No Re-Compress long GOP" is neat.
Vegas is a great program.

"I use Vegas 8.0a and create a HDV 1080i file with Dolby 5.1 edited audio to create a m2ts transport stream file ( 1 file from Vegas ). Then insert that into MF6+ and burn a HD-DVD or Blu-Ray Disk with the mpeg2@25MBS & my Dolby 5.1 audio tracks. It's very fast, no re-encoding. MF6+ goes right away and displays video/audio multiplexing.

I do this right from vegas and when encoding the video the no-recompress screen pops up in the preview window. This "No Re-Compress long GOP" is neat.
Vegas is a great program."
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Sorry guy... I'm not following this at all.

First, I am doing HD DVD not AVCHD. Second, my input to Vegas is not avchd (M2TS)... it's M2T, and my output should be mpg (or m2t) to MF6. If I convert from M2T to M2TS in Vegas, then there will be a complete reencode will there not?

Third, you may be able to generate a M2TS with DD5.1 sound, but you can't with a mpeg or M2T You have to generate the AC3 file separately (or 6 individual wav files, depending on your needs.)

If I could generate ONE mpeg file that INCLUDED the AC3 already muxed, then I doubt I would be having this problem with MF6.... but I don't see how this can be done.


The way I'm doing it NOW is that I capture to vegas as M2T and export as m2v from vegas (no recompress) and separate wav files (front, rear, center... etc), which is then all imported to pinnacle. But then Pinnacle has the ability to smart render AND mux the video/audio at the same time... you don't require one single file at the input stage.
I'm TRYING to do the same thing with MF6.... but....

Need Your Advice on my efforts to burn my first working HD DVD,,,,,


Following suggestions above:

I opened a project that had been originally rendered to one 38 min CFDI 1080i .avi file

I rendered that in Vegas to a 1080 m2t file with the accompanying audio file.
Had purchased and installed MF6+HD pack and patch #2. Brought my m2t file (both audio and video) onto that timeline.
When I tried to replace that audio with my ac3 version of the audio, I got a notice the file format is not accepted....
As another experiment I rendered a new .wav file of the audio track off the V timeline and tried to insert that instead of the mp2 audio and it would not accept the file even though it is 48.1 Hz, 16bit and all the rest....
So how are you guys getting other audio formats to load with the video on the MF timeline?

I also get a pop-up window that says:

"The file XXX has a way to improve editing performance. Do you want to perform pre-process to improve editing performance? Hold (Shift) to apply your decision to all files. YES/NO "

I've tried it both ways and can't see a difference...
Went and compared the stats on how Vegas rendered the m2t files and what the settings are with MF6 and one difference I noticed was that Vegas does Upper Field First and MF6 says it is Lower Field First.
Also, MF6 says LPCM for audio format while Vegas gave Mpeg 2.
I believe my file(s) is getting re-rendered and from start to burned finished disc it took about 1:10 for a :38 min project. I never saw the "No Re-Compression" that others have mentioned. Burn was considered "successful" when the tray spit it out..
What should I do differently...?

I burned using a Memorex +R DL and loaded it into my Toshiba A-2.

It looked gorgeous with one hiccup at around 3 min and then it finally continued all the way to 22:10 min where it stopped and just won't budge.

Is it the Render and Burn with MF6 even though it said it was successful?

Is it the Memorex blanks?

Is it the burner ? Which is a DVDR/W x 16 and I've never burned a DL disc before....

Next day use the same procedure to take finished projects rendered to CFDIs earler and render to a m2t using Vegas 1080 mpg2 template (using that audio just to keep it simple...)
Three videos are 18 min, 2 min, and 4 min long

Again it seems to render before burning the disc in MF6, takes some time....
Get the 'Successfully burned" window and its done.

Put in A2 player and its doing great all the way thru the first two videos and half way into the third and at the 22:10 mark it stops cold again and won't budge.

Looks like something is failing at the 2nd layer mark at around 22:10 ?

Would like help in figuring out how to isolate the snag with all these variables to chose from !

I've been gathering all the pieces to make this next step to burning and playing my very own HD DVDs like you folks, and just a taste is enough to make me want to see all my stuff looking that good.
What a difference a resolution can make!

Is there such a thing as a "half a coaster" ?
I've got two already.....

Eileen

A couple of rules of thumb might help you.

1/ Use only the highest quality blanks: Ty Yuden or Verbatim. With HD on a DVD+-R, you are pushing the disc close to the theoretical limit. Only the best discs can keep up. You'll especially notice this as you fill up the disc. This is because the discs start the record process in the center and work their way out. As you go further out, the amount of space covered with each revolution increases. This is why cheaper discs fail a while into the recording.

2/ For dual layer, use + R rather than -R. The layer split point is in a different place on dual layer -Rs. On a +R it is in the same place as it is on a pressed disc. On single layers you can go either way.

3/ Author the mpeg just like you are going to copy it back to your camera. Stereo audio in the regular HDV format will give you no problems. AC-3 works really well in Blu-ray compatible AVCHD discs, but will give you problems in HD DVD compatible 3x DVD discs,

4/ Smart-rendering HDV works just fine. Yeah the GOP sequence is messed up, but the Toshiba players don't seem to mind. Plus, if you are smart-rendering, you are definately in the right format. Not to mention no generation loss and super fast renders.

5/ Make sure you have all the MF6+ updates. Earlier versions had compatibity problems that are now fixed.

6/ Don't burn your discs too fast. I do 4x max, but I've read posts by people having no problems at 8x. I wouldn't mess with 16x burns though. Remember, you are pushing these discs close to their theoretical limit.

My overall workflow is detailed elsewhere in this thread. I have had trouble with DL burns that appear exactly like that described by teaktart. I examined the EDO files on the disk and found that they appeared exactly as the A2 had shown -- a mess. I remade the disk using MF6+ to produce folders and not perform the burn. I then burned from the folders to Memorex DVD+R DL using Ulead Burn Now (part of the MF6+ package). Resulting EDOs on the disk were correct; the disk played correctly in the A2. It appears that MF6+, but not Burn Now, has problems forming the disk image.

Perhaps this will help.

OOPS !
I forgot to mention in my post that my very first two experiments were with very short (8 min and 10 min videos) and were burned successfully to regular single layer discs (TDKs) .... so it seems definitely related to the DL.... are Memorex not reliable in your experiences?
I did use the +R DL type and it appears to burn @ 2.4X speed even though the discs are rated "up to x8 "....And if its at all relevant I have a quad core machine so that shouldn't be a hangup.
I just ordered some Verbatim +R DL (printable) discs from SuperMediaStore yesterday that were on sale....

"Author the mpeg just like you are going to copy it back to your camera."
Can you tell me exactly which Vegas template you are using to render to the right format?
I used the "MainConcept MPEG-2 (mpg:m2v:m2t,mpa)" type and the "HDV 1080-60i" template and it does seem to re-render in MF6. How would I "smart render" ? (I capture and edit with NEO/CFDIs)

"I examined the EDO files on the disk and found that they appeared exactly as the A2 had shown -- a mess."
What are these EDO files and how do you find and check them?

I did make and save the folders and disc images for each project so can go back to those for repeat burns.
Per LJA:
"I remade the disk using MF6+ to produce folders and not perform the burn. I then burned from the folders to Memorex DVD+R DL using Ulead Burn Now (part of the MF6+ package). Resulting EDOs on the disk were correct; the disk played correctly in the A2. It appears that MF6+, but not Burn Now, has problems forming the disk image."
I clicked on one of the longer project "image files" and opened with "Ulead Burn.Now" and hope this is what you are suggesting will work. I'll give it a burn right now using the same package of Memorex + R DL blanks and see if that gets me a good disc.
UPDATE: The burn from the "image' file worked! Played all the way thru to the end (38min) without a hiccup !

Thanks for your suggestions ! Will try the second longer project with the 3 short videos and see if that burns right...
UPDATE: This one burned right too! Played perfectly...

So LJA you are right, make the 'image file' in MF6 and save... then open it with the Ulead Burn.Now and "copy" the image file to disc is the way to get it right......
YES, we like that much better than 'half' coasters.....

Thank you very much!

Eileen

Eileen,

I don't recommend the Memorex disks but I have never had any problems with them. They happened to be all that was available at my local Staples when I decided to do my first DL test. I use TY disks for distribution.

Two folders are created by MF6+ for HD DVDs: ADV_OBJ (empty) and HVDVD_TS. The latter contains BUP, IFO, and EVO files. The EVO files can be played with Media Player Classic (video only). There will be one for approximately each gigabyte of video.

You may not be able to see these files unless you create them directly using the folder option in MF6+ or reload them from the disk image. Reading the disk image requires an extra DVD driver under XP. Toshiba has one, which can be found in another thread in this forum. Try searching for "UDF 2.5" or "UDF 2.6", the basic HD DVD disk format.

In my case, the ISO disk image file was corrupted (bad EVOs) so I reconstructed prepare folders using MF6+ with the original MPGs. My suspicion at the time was that MF6+ was producing bad ISOs but correct folders. Since I had not saved the folders from the original burn, I had no way of checking. Maybe I was just lucky the second time.

Good luck,

Larry

Thanks Larry,
I bought the Memorex several months ago and like you at the time everything else was sold out, so I bought these and also discovered they are not a printable type disc.
My Verbatims' (printable) arrived yesterday so I'll use those primarily from now on. BTW: I got my order to my door in less than 48hrs from SuperMediaStore, WOW ! thats fast....

If saving the 'image' file and then re-opening it (in Ulead Burn.Now)is the way to get a good burn that works for me. Better than wasting $3+ per DL disc for bad burns...

I sure hope SCS offers the ability to author and burn HD DVDs real soon here so we can go straight from the Vegas timeline to the authoring/burn in DVDA. Its a real shame we are stuck buying another company's software to do what so many of us want with our HD footage, which is see it in all its glory on a reasonably priced player....
Sorry but the Blu-Ray players are just not in the same price range as the HD-DVD players, regardless of how the "war" between the two formats sorts out.... got to get those prices down for the average consumers....

Eileen

I sure hope SCS offers the ability to author and burn HD DVDs real soon here so we can go straight from the Vegas timeline to the authoring/burn in DVDA. Its a real shame we are stuck buying another company's software to do what so many of us want with our HD footage, which is see it in all its gloryRight now, for some, this may seem like a solution. But after you have used all the new formats HD-DVD/AVCHD/BDMV you will probably choose the AVCHD/BDMV format. I was burning HD-DVD's and didn't like the format of the disk structure, therefore switched to avchd/bdmv format(s).
When it comes to +R media the Toshiba's are very picky.

When you create your HD-DVD a 4gig file gets split into 1 gig files, so a 7 gig video will have 7 - 1 gig files, each file using an EVO container. Depending on the size of your source videos you can easily end up with more than 1 video file in one 1 gig EVO container.
This method is similar to dvd's using the VOB containers. How do you get your information back off of the HD-DVD's that you have already created (and spent hours producing)? Right now, I'm not aware of any programs that can re-import HD-DVD back to the original content, even so, you would still need to use a program to extract the original footage.
For HD-DVD writing red-laser standard dvd's they are in the UDF 2.5/2.6 format, but the programs sure aren't using the benefit's of UDF 2.5/2.6 because none of the files are larger than 2 gig on the dvd.

Not so with avchd/bdmv format. Simply copy them (the videos) back from the disk to your harddrive, that's it.
I've made many AVCHD and BDMV disks. Today I needed to edit 2 of the videos already on a BDMV disk (dvd), then split & then re-combine them into one new video file.
I copied them from my BDMV / STREAMS folder (HDV-mpeg2@25MBS w/Dolby 5.1 Audio) back to the harddisk.
Then opened Vegas, inserted the 2 videos, trimmed & combined them and exported (render as) to a new file. This process was very fast since the "No re-compress long GOP" is active. So the new video was not re-encoded and it the same as the original.

So, the bottom line is:
If you write a HD-DVD using a 4 gig file you end up with 4-1gig EVO file (containers). Your video is split amongst these EVO files.
If you write an AVCHD/BDMV using a 4 gig file you end up with a 4gig file on the disk, in an easy to use TS (transport container).
You can easily load this 4gig video back into Vegas and work with it.
If for example you have 5 avchd/bdmv disks you have already made. You now want 1 video from one disk, 2 videos from another disk and whatever videos from the other disks to make another custom disk. You copy them back to your harddisk, insert them into your authoring program and quickly produce a new avchd/bdmv disk.
These videos are already compliant, so they will not be re-encoded again. The program will simply assign chaptering, menuing & then re-multiplex the new disk.

So on my end, it's the HD-DVD Format that's behind and doesn't suit my needs.

In my opinion the AVCHD/BDMV format is the better format. Easily editable & re-useable. Right now I have many AVCHD & BDMV video disks. To re-edit them is a breeze. If they were in the HD-DVD format I'd be in a bind (not possible).
So maybe SCS is waiting for industry to play catchup with players & burners.
What I'd like to see in Vegas is the "No Recompress long GOP work with avchd/h264" that would be neat, because it works great for HDV.

4eyes:
That was really interesting what you wrote. How / where could I read more about those details? Makes a lot of sense.

And what are you using to play back your discs in the other formats?
the AVCHD and BDMV you mention?

thanks,
Eileen